Technology is meant to make restaurant operations smoother—not more complicated. But with so many tools, platforms, and integrations, it’s easy for brands to get overwhelmed. Johnathan Chen, CEO and Co-Founder of 5&5, has made it his mission to help restaurants simplify their tech stack, streamline operations, and create a frictionless guest experience.

In this episode of Give an Ovation, Johnathan joins Zack Oates to discuss how brands can make technology work for them instead of against them, why removing friction is the most important part of guest experience, and what restaurants should focus on when evaluating their tech solutions.

Why Simplicity is the Key to Guest Experience (2:24)

“The most important aspect of guest experience is providing the simplest, least complicated way to place an order.” – Johnathan Chen

Johnathan breaks down why ordering should be effortless for guests, whether in-store or online. From digital payments to seamless POS integrations, restaurants that remove barriers to ordering win more customers and improve satisfaction.

How Restaurants Get Stuck in Tech Overload (6:10)

“Brands keep adding tech, but they don’t always connect it properly. Then, they wonder why things aren’t working.” – Johnathan Chen

With so many SaaS tools, POS systems, and integrations, it’s easy for restaurants to lose track of what they’re using and whether it’s actually helping. Johnathan shares how Five & Five helps brands audit their systems, clean up inefficiencies, and make tech work for their specific needs.

The Biggest Tech Mistakes Restaurants Make (10:32)

“A lot of brands sign up for new technology but never fully implement it. They don’t realize they’re missing half the value.” – Johnathan Chen

Johnathan and Zack discuss the most common mistakes brands make when adopting new technology, from poor staff training to missing integrations. Johnathan explains how to ensure teams actually use the tools they have and how to measure whether technology is truly driving value.

How to Improve Tech Without Overcomplicating Operations (14:15)

“Sometimes the best move isn’t adding more tech—it’s simplifying what you already have.” – Johnathan Chen

Johnathan shares actionable advice for both multi-unit brands and smaller operators on how to evaluate their tech stack, remove unnecessary tools, and optimize what’s actually working.

Who Deserves an Ovation? (18:29)

Johnathan gives a shoutout to Nikki R., applauding his authentic, insightful content on restaurant technology and his ability to spark meaningful industry conversations.

Follow Johnathan Chen & Five & Five:

Website: https://5and5.com/

LinkedIn: Johnathan Chen

Transcript

00:00:00:05 – 00:00:21:16

Zack Oates

Welcome to another edition of Give an Ovation, the Restaurant Guest Experience podcast, where I talk to industry experts to get their strategies and tactics you can use to create a five star guest experience. This podcast is sponsored by ovation, an operations and guest recovery platform for multi-unit restaurants that gives all the answers without annoying guests with all the questions.

00:00:21:17 – 00:00:44:24

Zack Oates

Learn more at ovation up.com. And today we have Johnathan Chen, the co-founder and CEO of Five and Five. And he was previously the head of strategy at five and five and took over last year as a CEO. Been doing some amazing things over there. Obviously he’s been there for a while. He actually, if you dig deep into his LinkedIn, you see he’s no noob to the restaurant industry.

00:00:45:00 – 00:00:53:07

Zack Oates

He’s been around the food and bev space for a while. So don’t let the brains fool you. But Johnathan, welcome to the podcast, man.

00:00:53:09 – 00:00:57:10

Johnathan Chen

Thank you for having me. Excited to be here. I’m humbled. What an introduction. Honestly.

00:00:57:12 – 00:01:06:00

Zack Oates

Well, all I did is read what you’ve done, man. You’ve done some great things. And for those who aren’t familiar with five and Five, you want to explain to us a little bit about what it is.

00:01:06:02 – 00:01:25:13

Johnathan Chen

Yeah, absolutely. So five five is a food service interviews Premier I.T and digital managed services company really kind of support brands end to end from everything from RFP to SAS implementation to POS and platform management. And our focus really is on making sure that brands have really the ability to make the right type of decisions versus sometimes what is the easiest decision.

00:01:25:14 – 00:01:44:10

Johnathan Chan

So really, every brand that we work with has a completely bespoke suit with us. They decide how little or how much of what they want from us, and we support all the major point of sale systems end to end as well. So really here on kind of making sure that we are there to support our brands and whatever they’re looking for new technology, transitions, editions, whatever that may be.

00:01:44:10 – 00:01:46:00

Johnathan Chan

That’s exactly right here for it.

00:01:46:02 – 00:01:56:07

Zack Oates

So what are some problems that you’re solving when brands come to you and they’re like, Johnathan, we need some help because we have this problem. Where are you? Like, yeah, we nail that for you.

00:01:56:09 – 00:02:15:21

Johnathan Chan

Yeah, I would say Covid sparked a lot of this, but as everything kind of continues to become more and more digital, a lot of this means adding more and more technology to the solution stack. And what was 2 or 3 pieces now is 15, 16, 17 pieces. And oftentimes brands are really excited to add these solution stacks in and then don’t realize it.

00:02:15:21 – 00:02:31:09

Johnathan Chan

Also, connect together for it to work seamlessly to get really kind of the true value out of it. I mean, it gets to a point where there’s too much, and I really trying to figure out what exactly what do we actually need? What do we need to do? How do we fix the things aren’t working? How do we make sure we are getting the value out of solutions that we signed up for?

00:02:31:11 – 00:02:55:14

Johnathan Chan

And oftentimes it kind of comes to us in just this historic whatever. There are some tribal knowledge. Some people know what’s happened, some people don’t. And so it’s really kind of us figuring out from what is this very black box of what exactly is happening and really how can kind of pull this together. So I would say most of the times, whereas companies are saying, hey, we know that there is opportunity, we just need to kind of help figuring it out.

00:02:55:14 – 00:03:09:18

Johnathan Chan

So it’s not always kind of a clear cut. We know you mean exactly why are we exactly X? Some are brands to come to us and say, hey, look, we want to redo our menu and we know that redoing the menu is going to impact or point of sale system is going to impact loyalty. It’s going to impact online ordering.

00:03:09:23 – 00:03:18:06

Johnathan Chan

How do we make sure we don’t break everything? Then other times it’s hey, we just know things aren’t working and we need someone to come and dig in and figure out what’s going.

00:03:18:08 – 00:03:43:12

Zack Oates

Yeah. And I think that that is something where it’s often with consulting. When I was a consultant, it was one of those things where before I got into consulting, I was like, consulting is a joke. You go in there, you charge a lot of money to do a simple project. But really what it comes down to is a lot of times there’s projects where it’s too expensive to hire someone in or hire a team in full time to handle it, and that team would be doing things for the first time.

00:03:43:14 – 00:04:07:02

Zack Oates

And so when you work with advisors, consultants, teams, it allows you to solve a problem that’s very specific with experts who have done it several times. So you have the benefit of not only keeping up with your competition, but going faster than them and making sure that you’re getting these critical pieces of infrastructure in place the right way.

00:04:07:02 – 00:04:21:13

Zack Oates

Because oh my gosh, John, how many times do you have to go in and clean up what someone tried to figure out for the first time where all they had to do was make a call, and now they’re paying twice as much to go half as fast.

00:04:21:18 – 00:04:53:03

Johnathan Chan

Absolutely. And I think the really interesting part is cost is always kind of this, like top of mind thing for a franchise, especially now in the last years, I think we’ve all seen the industry brands continue to figure out ways to kind of cut on G&A expense, really kind of balancing really kind of the economic situation of where we’re sitting from an industry standpoint and oftentimes and kind of talk about whether it’s a consulting resource or innovating and services, it often times, surprisingly, it works out better, partly just to kind of you mentioned it’s kind of an expert resourcing you have at the ready that’s done this process quite a few times.

00:04:53:05 – 00:05:08:18

Johnathan Chan

That’s going to come in and fix the problem really fully versus kind of duct tape solution. But part of this is also just oftentimes because the expertise is there, you don’t really sometimes need that full resource. We have brands of companies and say, hey, just help us clean stuff up and then just make it manageable and we can take care of it.

00:05:08:23 – 00:05:27:11

Johnathan Chan

So really being able to kind of equip brands with the ability to say, cool, what do I actually need? Where should the spend actually go? That’s what we’re here for. So it could be a project, it could be an ongoing retainer. But for us it’s what do you actually need? And really, how do we clean this up for this actually be sustainable long term with or without a resource?

00:05:27:13 – 00:05:32:09

Johnathan Chan

If that’s not something the brand new to this moment because of where they are in terms of their brand process.

00:05:32:11 – 00:05:54:21

Zack Oates

I’m a nerdy guy. I like technology, I’m guessing by your AirPod, Max’s, you’re kind of a nerd to, so as we’re sitting, you’re talking about the tech stack and these different techs implement. I think one of the things that it’s always critical to remember, and I know that from our teams have been talking. I know that five and five believes this very strongly.

00:05:55:01 – 00:06:15:01

Zack Oates

It’s really about the guest experience. And if the technology is not enhancing the guest experience in the end, because a lot of times you could implement technology and it helps with the bottom line or top line, and that allows you to invest more in the guest experience. But if the end result doesn’t all flow to the guest experience, it’s not a worthwhile endeavor.

00:06:15:06 – 00:06:24:22

Zack Oates

So what do you look at? How do you marry technology and guest experience, and what do you think the most important aspect of guest experience nowadays is?

00:06:24:24 – 00:06:41:08

Johnathan Chan

Yeah, that’s a great question. I mean, I would say this is kind of really obvious, but I think from the position we stand in, we really feel like it’s oftentimes forgotten versus being the focus. But I’d say the most important aspect of the guest experience is brands providing really the simplest, least complicated way to place an order.

00:06:41:10 – 00:07:02:16

Zack Oates

Oh my gosh. Ding ding ding ding ding ding. Right right. Where can we just pause there and just celebrate that moment? Right. Remove the friction. If people want to spend money with you, let them. 97% of people have recently backed out of a purchase due to friction. I love that, Jonathan. I just want to celebrate you for saying that.

00:07:02:16 – 00:07:03:06

Zack Oates

Dan.

00:07:03:08 – 00:07:19:24

Johnathan Chan

Thank you. And like I get that it’s not the least or it’s not the most exciting or flashy innovation. It’s not the thing that we really want to be spending time talking to. It’s not what makes the newsletter or the publications. It’s not the stuff that the CTO is most proud of. But really, at the end of the day, doesn’t make a difference.

00:07:19:24 – 00:07:39:18

Johnathan Chan

And this is in-store or digital. Every time we make something complicated, it really prevents the core of what the entire purpose of everything we’re doing really is, therefore, which is how do we make this transaction happen when a store runs out of items at 86 fast enough with a customer placing transaction, does it support digital payments? Can you one click order?

00:07:39:21 – 00:07:57:22

Johnathan Chan

These are all kind of very straightforward things really. Can a customer start the transaction and end in how fast is it take for that kind of answer in process. And we are sitting here and saying, cool, how do I optimize everything from my POS to my panels to can a staff go in and easily place modify orders based on customer requests?

00:07:57:24 – 00:08:16:12

Johnathan Chan

Is that apply to web and mobile? Look, at the end of the day, the way I see it is the ordering experience can be pretty, but if it adds unnecessary components and complexity for a customer trying to place transaction, I think the brand started to focus on the wrong things and really just focusing on core. How do I go from the start of the transaction to the end?

00:08:16:14 – 00:08:25:16

Johnathan Chan

As simple, straightforward, least complicated as possible is really where brands are going to start to win. And I think where a lot of brands start to really focus energy and attention.

00:08:25:18 – 00:08:51:17

Zack Oates

It makes so much sense and it’s so simple. Right. And I think that that’s the thing about so much of hospitality is you hear it and you think, well, no duh. But here’s the thing. It’s hard to implement because there’s a thousand other things punching us in the face, and we start to get away from the reason that we’re in it, which is that human to human aspect.

00:08:51:19 – 00:09:17:08

Zack Oates

And we’re there to fill people and help them feel fulfilled. And those are things that often get overlooked as you work with a lot of these brands, typically your average customer has quite a few locations. You’re working with some of the biggest of the biggest brands. Yeah. And what is something that you would recommend? What are some tactics that you would recommend to improve the guest experience for both multi-unit brands?

00:09:17:08 – 00:09:27:01

Zack Oates

And then what are some pieces of advice, maybe for some of the smaller brands out there that are looking to grow into someone who can claim to be one of your customers?

00:09:27:03 – 00:09:44:01

Johnathan Chan

Yeah, absolutely. I think it is kind of similar in tie to kind of what we were just talking about. But a lot of this is kind of this like back to basics, which is kind of this approach that I feel like in general, a lot of brands where I’m taking doesn’t matter for small trying to go big or big and massive as an organization.

00:09:44:01 – 00:10:00:07

Johnathan Chan

But a lot of this comes down to simplicity, and that is what that looks like in terms of core execution and what it says. It’s going to kind of resemble ongoing. And I think a lot of this also combines a lot of mathematics. We kind of continue to hear within the restaurant industry is there are this 5 or 6 build approach.

00:10:00:07 – 00:10:17:07

Johnathan Chan

Do I go and hand take an integration every single part of my system, or do I do this kind of all in one solution? And all this kind of ties back down to brands are just starting to evaluate whether or not what they’ve chosen is actually what they need. Is every solution and technology stack necessary? Is it actually doing a value to brands expected?

00:10:17:07 – 00:10:31:20

Johnathan Chan

Is it actually driving sales and actually making customer experience better? And I think a lot of this is what I mean by kind of the back to basics approach is just being intentional and looking at the entire customer journey. Well, that’s in store online and really saying, what do we need to make it better and faster for customer?

00:10:32:01 – 00:10:49:02

Johnathan Chan

And I think this is at the regardless of the brand size, because I think when you’re small going big, you start saying, look, how do I catch up to the big guys? The big guys has the fancy guys on the front end. You have all these great destination platforms, etc. how do I add all the stats in? But again, if you’re not utilizing it correctly, it’s not integrated properly.

00:10:49:02 – 00:11:15:00

Johnathan Chan

It doesn’t matter that you have it because you’re not able to get the true value out of it. And for all the big brands as well that continue to add additional solutions back for are deciding what do we actually do in-house versus how do we just kind of buy something off the shelf. Much of the same problem is also occurring because there is still this tech that’s going to occur, whether that’s adding too much, too fast and not being what’s manage it, or you’ve added so much and you continue to add to it, you don’t know if everything is working as expected.

00:11:15:00 – 00:11:30:24

Johnathan Chan

And having said, be that kind of cleanup process. And I think the way that I always put it is it’s simple as best. And I think we’ve even seen it really from marketing perspective. Right? We look at every single brand and as they’re kind of been moving forward in this process of like, what is that back to basics, right?

00:11:30:24 – 00:11:48:06

Johnathan Chan

It doesn’t matter if that’s McDonald’s looking at their value proposition as a matter, if it’s all these brands starting to do nostalgic Alto’s or kind of going back to brand statics and historicals of saying, look, why do brands, why do people like this and begin with what made us as great as brands we are today? That still applies very much kind of the technology stack.

00:11:48:11 – 00:12:15:14

Johnathan Chan

Like I always say that for all the work that we do, I still order from the bricks and DoorDash. And part of it is, look, I know that I’m paying a premium, but ordering through these platform guarantees me things that I think are basic and unnecessary when I’m just trying to place transactions saying, I’m hungry. I just want to order something that I know is a consistent UI in one place and transaction from buy one to a problem I’m going to get an AI agent neatly solves it, or someone that’s going to come take care of my problem.

00:12:15:16 – 00:12:41:13

Johnathan Chan

And the brands that are able to create a very similar experience are the ones that I choose to order from natively, because your inability to ensure that a customer get from the starts to the end as easy as possible. No points, no loyalty program, no integration, no system is going to solve those issues. And really, the best apps that exist are the ones that enable the kind of very seamless transition between in-store and digital, but still allow the ability to one recognize that you’re a customer.

00:12:41:13 – 00:12:58:20

Johnathan Chan

Yes, but also recognizing that as a customer, you just want to place to transaction. So if I can make sure that you don’t run is a payment issues and not run into any weird UI issues, you don’t run into word issues. That’s where I think brands are going to, again, need to focus effort on to make sure they are capturing that market segment.

00:12:58:20 – 00:13:17:09

Johnathan Chan

I would say for most of our brands, really, especially this year, we have a lot. Yeah. What is working, what isn’t? How do we clean this up? How do you simplify it? Because it’s, you know, gets to a point where there’s too much to manage and brands are struggling with really kind of justifying. Not only is it worth the cost, is it worth the ongoing effort to continue to maintain these systems?

00:13:17:09 – 00:13:25:04

Johnathan Chan

Are we actually getting true value? How are we measuring the return on investment? Is it really doing the things we thought it was supposed to do when we added it into our system?

00:13:25:06 – 00:13:49:07

Zack Oates

And I think that’s so appropriate that when you buy a technology, it’s like buying a boat you don’t finish. The expense is not signed when you pay for it upfront, right? You always have to maintain it. You have to use it, you have to train people on it. And I think a lot of times about we moved into a house and we put a nice big hood over our stove.

00:13:49:09 – 00:14:29:00

Zack Oates

My wife and I, we’d never had a hood before. So we get there and when we start cooking our first meal, that’s really smoky. Guess what? We don’t do? We didn’t turn the hood on, right? Smoke detectors went off and it was hard to do, but we had the hood. We just didn’t use it. I think that’s what happens a lot of times with technology is you get this new piece of technology and your staff forgets to do something simple, like turn it on to use it, or I just talked to a brand recently and they were like, yeah, we’re trying to figure out all this stuff that was purchased because we don’t even know.

00:14:29:06 – 00:14:51:05

Zack Oates

We don’t know what was purchased because there were things that were purchased that were a marketing tool that we weren’t even consulted on. And this was the head of marketing. And so these are things that we didn’t really have to focus on and ensure that, like you said, we’re not just buying the right technology, but that it’s speaking together the right way and that we’re talking to our people about it.

00:14:51:05 – 00:15:02:19

Zack Oates

The right way to use it and really do that evaluation go down dose style, not to get political, but like line by line and see what’s the value you get in here.

00:15:02:21 – 00:15:19:11

Johnathan Chan

Yeah. And I think a lot of where I’m incredibly grateful that we kind of sit in this very interesting position because like, we don’t own any software and a lot of kind of our process has been super intentional. And just saying, look, we’re going to be agnostic. Whatever our brands choose is really what we’re going to be able to support if they want to move.

00:15:19:14 – 00:15:31:03

Johnathan Chan

So we’re going to be able to support that. But it’s also an art kind of ability to work closely at our partners to say, how do we make sure that our brands are getting the most value out of the platform? Because like, half the time a brand will sign up and say, well, this looks really pay on paper.

00:15:31:03 – 00:15:47:21

Johnathan Chan

Look at the sales process. The partners excited, get to sign, and then there’s no traction. And then the brand eventually kind of falls off. And the reality is it’s not necessarily an issue with the technology. There is just simply a disconnect with how is our brand getting value system. Do they understand Audi works? Is it even integrated properly?

00:15:48:02 – 00:16:06:21

Johnathan Chan

These are question marks because like if you talk from I’m sure, your perspective and kind of having a SaaS solution, it’s like really basic stuff that you expect was already done. But someone on the brand said, yep, I did that task of making sure everything’s connected and never happened. And so you’re getting half the amount information that’s needed for your platform to work effectively.

00:16:07:02 – 00:16:23:23

Johnathan Chan

And the brands unhappy because not getting the results and everything seems kind of weird. And so our role also is making sure that if a brand signed up for something that our partner is also successful in that space, that’s 100%. We’re here for it. It’s sitting here and saying, cool, what are you using? Does it make sense? And are you getting less out of it?

00:16:23:23 – 00:16:44:14

Johnathan Chan

Because I think oftentimes, like you said, brands are signing up and saying, cool, this is nice. Pretty. I’ve turned it on. And then they forget that it’s there. And when you forget that it’s they’re not utilizing correctly. And yes, it’s going to be very easy where you sit here and say I making do value out of it when the reality is you’re just not simply utilizing really the full breadth of what that solution is therefore, and designed to be able to be for the brand as well.

00:16:44:16 – 00:17:13:18

Zack Oates

Yeah. I think that one of the biggest things that I feel like is the issue with restaurants and technology now that restaurants have really started to adopt technology since Covid, as you were talking about, that the next big hurdle is implementing and utilizing that technology. There are so many vendors, I guarantee you right now in your brand, you are working with a vendor who can solve a problem for you that you are paying for, that you don’t know.

00:17:13:18 – 00:17:40:10

Zack Oates

They can do. So as part of going through that audit of what is the value here, part of that is let’s reconnect and let’s make sure that you and that your vendor are chatting and understanding that. So so you get the full breadth of what they can do because there’s so many things. I just talked yesterday to someone who didn’t know that you can use innovation phone number to text back and forth without submitting feedback.

00:17:40:10 – 00:18:01:14

Zack Oates

Right? That’s a brand new thing for them, but something that we have. There’s so many things that every vendor can do that it’s hard to remember what they are and aren’t using what they have and haven’t heard about what they chose not to use, what they didn’t know they can use. And so yeah, I would say in that evaluation process, it’s really powerful to go through and understand.

00:18:01:14 – 00:18:23:06

Zack Oates

And that’s part of the benefit of using someone like you. Right, Jonathan, is that you take it upon yourself to understand the scope and capabilities of these tech vendors. That’s why I think it’s so powerful to leverage someone who has an expertise. Now, I know we’re running low on time here, and I do want to make sure that we hear this answer because, you know, a lot of people in the restaurant industry.

00:18:23:06 – 00:18:29:19

Zack Oates

And so who is someone that you think deserves innovation? Who’s someone who we should be following?

00:18:29:21 – 00:18:51:15

Johnathan Chan

I think a close friend of yours. But I’m going to throw the ovation of love at Nikki because I think a lot of what he does, and this is what I have immense respect for, is he’s not creating content for the sake of being content. And every post that is hosting is not sales. And there’s something that’s really intentionally there to kind of start the conversation is to add context.

00:18:51:15 – 00:19:07:17

Johnathan Chan

The conversation is super passionate about what he does. They have a beautiful platform. A lot of it is saying, how do we add value to the conversation? How do I show brands what they can get out of it? And I think, I mean this nice way. LinkedIn is kind of like starting to transform to like Facebook is what it feels like.

00:19:07:22 – 00:19:40:02

Johnathan Chan

Yeah. So I really kind of feel and see authentic content. And really the way I see it is in meeting him, he posts the way he talks. He’s not fluffing this up to be something else. And so his ability to be an expert in his space and also be authentic in the way he’s approaching it and his voice shines through, there’s a ton of value that I get, just kind of seeing what he’s posting about the brands that are working with this platform, and really kind of how he’s seeing the industry and technology continue to evolve, that it feels like it’s an actual, honest conversation and it’s adding kindling to the fire versus it’s just

00:19:40:02 – 00:19:48:09

Johnathan Chan

there to say something, to say something in this space. So I throw it to him and then respect for him and kind of everything he’s built with his team. But that’s, I hear, duration too.

00:19:48:11 – 00:20:00:01

Zack Oates

Awesome. Yeah, I love Becky, love RB. He does some awesome stuff. Great content, great human. Very well deserved. Now where can people go to find and follow you Jonathan.

00:20:00:03 – 00:20:00:24

Johnathan Chan

Yeah, absolutely.

00:20:00:24 – 00:20:02:22

Zack Oates

And five and five and five.

00:20:02:22 – 00:20:20:04

Johnathan Chan

Five. You’re welcome to follow me on LinkedIn. I don’t host super frequently. So five five probably where you get most of the updates by In Search. My name Jonathan Chan on LinkedIn. Otherwise, in terms of five and five, you can see on the search us both on Facebook alongside of Instagram and LinkedIn. On LinkedIn and Facebook. It’ll be fine.

00:20:20:04 – 00:20:29:21

Johnathan Chan

Ampersand five. On LinkedIn it’s five and five underscore. Com and then our website is five and 5.com five. And icon.

00:20:29:23 – 00:20:40:22

Zack Oates

Awesome. Well Jonathan for reminding us at the heart of the guest experience is not necessarily about technology but simplicity. Today’s ovation goes to you. Thank you so much for joining us on Giving Ovation.

00:20:41:03 – 00:20:43:06

Johnathan Chan

Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

00:20:43:08 – 00:21:05:19

Zack Oates

Thanks for joining us today. If you liked this episode, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite place to listen. We’re all about feedback here. Again, this episode was sponsored by ovation, a two question, SMS based, actionable guest feedback platform built for multi-unit restaurants. If you’d like to learn how we can help you measure and create a better guest experience, visit us at ovation up.com.