Make It Craveable, Memorable, and Instagram-able with James Walker of Nathan’s Famous

SPEAKERS

James Walker, Zack Oates

James Walker (preview)

If you want to wow consumers, just executing that brand promise is probably not going to be enough. If you want raving, you know raving fans, and you want brand evangelists, you need to go above and beyond.

Zack Oates (intro)

What’s up! Zack Oates here. Author, entrepreneur and customer relationship guru. Welcome to Give an Ovation – growth strategies for restaurants and retailers, where we find industry leaders to share their secrets to grow your business. This podcast is sponsored by Ovation, the actionable guest feedback tool that works on or off premise and is easy real time and actually drives revenue. Learn more at Ovationup.com.

Welcome to another edition of Give an Ovation! I am joined today by the famous James Walker. He is Senior Vice President of restaurants at Nathan’s Famous – yes that one who has propelled the brand to new heights with off premises, ghost kitchens and menu innovations that have not been seen in the brand’s 100 year history. And that’s really no surprise given the fact that he’s been in senior positions at Baja fresh, Cinnabon, Johnny Rockets, Subway, and was actually just invited and joined the CIA as a society of fellows. And you know, James and I, we were actually honored to share a panel at the food on demand virtual conference, and then we share the stage, I was right after him, tough act to follow, at the ghost kitchen conference. But straight from the CIA. James, welcome.

James Walker

Yeah. Well, and just to be clear, that’s the Culinary Institute of America. Not the, not the Espionage agency. So yeah, that’s quite an introduction. Thank you, I see that my, my press agent, is doing well and took your short introduction and was able to, to make it sound like I’m a really old guy who’s been around for a long time, which is basically what I heard you say.

Zack Oates

Well, you know, in terms of the CIA and the CIA, I feel like secret sauces are probably kept like just as secretive. But oene thing that I was really impressed by James is normally when you hear a bunch of brands like that, it’s like oh, I was at a group that worked with Baja fresh, Cinnabon, Johnny Rockets, Subway, like, No, no, you, you have gone individually to each of those brands, and just like, been a game changer there. So that’s just super cool that you’ve had such an illustrious career. And first of all, I would love to jump into Nathan’s Famous. Tell us a little bit about what your role is there.

James Walker

Sure. So I oversee the restaurant division, for Nathan’s Famous. And you know, if you know, Nathan’s Famous, you know that we are we’re really available coast to coast, we’re in virtually every grocery store and convenience store. I over see the restaurant division, which includes our new, rapidly growing network of hosts or ghost kitchens. And also my team oversees and is working to develop an international network of manufacturing partners. And a lot of this work that the team has done, has been completed during the pandemic. So you talk about headwinds and challenges. The team’s done just a phenomenal job. So you know, this this media, we’re on a zoom call right now we got as most people did, super familiar with using video conference technology.

Zack Oates

Which, which is funny for a very old brand, because normally it’s hard to teach old dogs new tricks. And by the way, I love the humility – for those of you who haven’t heard of Nathan’s, it’s like, Yes, I, I don’t know, an American who hasn’t heard of Nathan’s. But I appreciate the humility James. Now, yesterday, I took a picture. I was at a Nathan’s took a picture. And there was a big sign in front that said, more than just the best hot dogs, and it had some pictures of sandwiches on it. Oh, so why, why focus on menu innovations, that of all the things you could do? Why menu?

James Walker

Well, you know, coming in, and my background, going back many, many, many, many years, really was on the culinary side. So I started, you know, back of the house and was a chef and a culinary in for a number of years. So, you know, coming into any restaurant brand, I am always going to be very, very passionate about the food offerings and the consumer experience because in my experience, that’s what really propels brands to do really, really well.

Coming into Nathan’s famous and having that, you know, what can I change? What can I make better? You know, here’s a brand that’s two core products really – the Nathan’s famous single hotdog and the crinkle cut fries were two things not only that didn’t need evolution, frankly, you know, it was hands off. They were so good. They were at the top of their game. So really what myself and the team has been doing for the past two and a half years, wasn’t creating new menu categories or new menu items. It really was elevating the rest of the menu beyond the hotdogs and fries to the level of the hotdogs and fries. So, you know, two and a half years ago, we had a Philadelphia cheesesteak. Philadelphia cheese steaks are great. Philadelphia is great. Don’t send me hate mail. I love Philadelphia. But we’re in New York. Granted, we’re the flavor of New York, we needed a new york cheesesteak. So probably the first home run, that the team hit, at least during my tenure, was working with our good friend and partner, Pat Lafrieda, to develop a new york cheesesteak, which is a perfect example of an evolution. We had a successful Philadelphia cheese steak. And now we’ve got a super or I guess we use “uber” now we have an “uber” successful,

Zack Oates

Are we allowed to say that?

James Walker

I I am for sure. Yeah, I’m not gonna get sued for this. You put this together. An uber successful.

Zack Oates

Hey, let’s let’s just bleep out that uber name.

James Walker

Hyperbolistic comment about the number of guests buying new york cheese steaks by Pat Lafrieda at Nathan’s sure sure. That works.

Zack Oates

That’s, that’s awesome, because I think it’s one of the things that’s so interesting that you think about Nathan’s Famous. And like you said, you instantly think about the hotdogs. You think about the fries and you and then when you see other things on the menu, you’re like, Oh, wait, there’s more? Like, and so I love that sign. But how do you get guests to pick something else?

James Walker

Well, I this this is actually a really fun question. So Nathan’s in the background here, and I don’t know if people are going to be listening to this or looking at it. My background here on zoom is a photograph I took of our flagship restaurant on Coney Island.

Zack Oates

You took that?

James Walker

I did. Yeah.

Zack Oates

Bravo!

James Walker

At night. Yeah. With my own private iPhone. Wait, can we say that? Whoever makes iPhone? You know, maybe maybe. So, you know, that restaurant has had a larger menu for years and years and years. In fact, you know, I was with a reporter from the Wall Street Journal yesterday. And we were talking about the fact that that flagship location has served frog legs since the 50s. And still does, we still have people who line up to buy Nathan’s famous frog legs.

So, you know, two points to your question about, you know, how do you get people to buy other things. We’ve sold other things for years and years. And that’s, you know, that’s part of the brand architecture. But what I love about Nathan’s customers, is if we put something new and exciting on the menu, and there’s kind of three categories that that really have elevated over the last two and half years. That New York cheese steak with Pat lafrieda, our fresh Angus burgers, and our hand battered chicken program that was put together by Mark Miller, Chef Mark Miller, they see these new items, and it’s like, wow, you know, I’ve got to try that. They still buy the hotdog. So they know they just come in and make a conscious choice and say, Well, you know, I i’ve been craving a hot dog and crinkle cut fries, but you talked me out of it. I don’t know that you can talk somebody out of a Nathan’s famous hot dog. You couldn’t talk me out of it.

So that’s basically what they do. You know, we’ll see elderly couples, baby boomers have been passionate about Nathan’s famous for longer than I’ve been alive. And they’re still going to buy their hotdogs. And you know, they know exactly how they want that hotdog dressed. But they’ll split under your cheese steak or they’ll split one of our new Angus burgers. So you know, this has been a boon to sales. And I think it’s really been a boon to you know, the customer experience as well.

Zack Oates

And I think that is that’s something so interesting, because totally as I you know, our mutual friend Rev Ciancio.

James Walker

Now who’s this?

Zack Oates

Hahaha. As I do food tours with him, it’s like, we’ll go we were just in Vegas together. We went to six restaurants in a day. And we had like three dishes at every single restaurant, because we want to try everything you know, and yeah, and a hot dog. I mean, you’re not talking 30 bucks for a dog. Right? They’re not crazy, that splurging that much to try something else. And I love that concept of elevating because you have set the bar for hot dogs and so on. People come in assuming, okay, well, this is going to be just as good. And if they’re disappointed, then it kind of kind of lowers the level of a hotdog. Right? Because it’s all about the brand. Like you guys aren’t called Nathan’s famous hot dogs. You guys are Nathan’s famous.

James Walker

We are. And in fact, our tagline is Nathan’s famous, the flavor of New York. So you know, the the menu work we’ve done, we made sure that it really fit within, you know, the, the, the guide rails, if you will, of being the flavor of New York. So we thought, you know, New York cheese steak makes sense. And, you know, some of the other work we’ve done really fits within that. But I think you’re 100% correct. When you look at a brand like Nathan’s you know, the expectation is everything you have on your menu is going to be good. And, you know, I go back to, we had a Philadelphia cheesesteak, and it was, it was really good, and it sold really well. We just thought we could go from good to great with that item. And that’s what we really did across the menu, elevating everything to that, that super high level that the hotdog and fries.

Zack Oates

And you know, speaking of elevating that, I mean, you walk into a century old brand, how, you know, I’m working with a lot of people that are dealing with brands that are three, four or five years old, and they’re having a hard time pushing change and pushing innovation. What did you do? What recommendations would you give to those people who are trying to affect change in their restaurant brand?

James Walker

Well, I actually do have some advice. And you know, I think, you know, whether it’s to an individual leader, or a change agent, and I do consider myself a change agent, I don’t think, you know, anybody says, hey, let’s hire James Walker, he’s a pretty status quo kind of guy. And, you know, he’ll just, I don’t I don’t get those calls.

So the advice I would have for either leaders or acquisition companies, and you know, we’re not talking about it, but there’s SPAC’s, and private equity groups, and a lot of mergers and acquisitions and things going on in the industry right now. I think, you know, when you acquire either a new role, or a new company into your portfolio, there is this inclination or even, you know, predisposition, to say, you know, what, can we do different and start looking at maybe what a brand doesn’t do well, right. So, you look at that and say, okay, so you do this one piece really well. But what don’t you do? Well, that’s where I’m going to focus because I see those as opportunities. That absolutely is not what I came into Nathan’s famous looking to do. I came into Nathan’s famous and said, I want to learn what you do well, that I can accelerate and expand on. And really, in the case of Nathan’s famous what they did well, was convenience, innovation and food quality, they really cooked in the kitchen. So you know, this was not a situation where I said, Okay, we’re going to go in opposite direction. I looked and really spent time in the kitchen, myself spent time learning the job of a manager and a grill cook, and a fry, cook, and all of those things, and said, we’re going to be most successful if we’re trying to increase the cadence and pace of innovation, but it fits within what the brand already does well, versus let’s find something you don’t do. Well, and let’s spend all of our time there.

Zack Oates

James, I love that so much. So in restaurants, as in restaurants, so to in life, right, one of the most important lessons I learned in my late 20s was that you focus on your weaknesses only to the extent that they hold back your strengths. You know, no one to your point, No one has been memorable for being Hey, remember that guy who is just like, okay, at everything now, right? You’re, you’re remembered because you do something very, very well. And what that means is you’re you’re sacrificing other things, and that’s okay. But when you came into Nathan’s famous, it’s kind of interesting, right? Because your strength, it wasn’t just your hotdogs, it was the, you know, there’s a lot of operational strengths that you guys had, that you were able to leverage and, and utilize those and not just focus on how do we just look at all the things that we suck at and let’s get a little bit better at it. And I love your your mantra of craveable, memorable, and instagram-able. I’ve heard you say that quite a few times. And I think that just makes so much sense is that is that a something that you came up with?

James Walker

It is and really you know, and I don’t want to call them out but you know, kind of my my partner in crime or one of my partners in crime and an innovation Is our head of marketing and communications, Phil McCann, and, you know, I would I would talk to someone and I would try to describe, you know, what the benchmark was for for menu items. And I would say, you know, it has to be memorable, it has to stick in their mind, it has to be craveable. And then I would describe what craveable means to me. And you know, what it has to look at, it has to be instagram-able, we want things that people want to take a picture of, even in my own career back in the, you know, the 90s, way back in the 90s. You know, when I was a –

Zack Oates

When malls ruled the world more than –

James Walker

More than when malls ruled the world. Being a chef and watching somebody pull out a 35 millimeter camera with film in it. And taking a photo of a dish I made just, you know how, what pride I had in that. So as we worked, and we want to just to elevate the menu offerings, memorable craveable instagrammable was just something I kept saying, and really meant a lot to me, it was a great way for me to be true to the process, as also, you know, being very descriptive to say stakeholders are potential candidates. And I think it took Phil, he probably won’t listen to this. You know, I think it took Phil a little while before he warmed up to that. But once we did, it was a great way for us to describe the brand in a way that people just the lights went off. They said, Okay, I got all those things that makes complete sense. And it really is. It’s a filtering process. We have done things that didn’t meet one of those three criteria where we said, Nope, you know, we can’t, we won’t put it on the menu.

Zack Oates

Interesting. Yeah, cause I think that those three things, it just makes so much sense. Because you have the context, you have the experience, and then you have the virality of it. And that’s what makes a successful dish. I know we are running out of time. But James, I’ve got a couple more questions. One, can you give us like one minute on on wings of New York, because you guys are exploding. And a lot of people may not know about it, I would love for people to hear about this concept. And what have you figured out?

James Walker

Well, you know, wings is a category obviously on fire right now. And people love wings. When we looked at a way for us to leverage our existing kitchens and the culinary acumen that I think it’s just part of the brand, you know, we said, alright, obviously wings, it’s something that has a huge consumer demand around the world. And we like that. It’s something that sits under the brand architecture of the flavor of New York, what’s more New York, then buffalo wings, but it’s also something and maybe this is the most important piece, it’s something wings of New York was was a category in a brand where we thought we could create something that was unique and special. So its wings, waffles and tenders. And instead of trying to create our own line of proprietary sauces, we said, You know what, people have favorite sauces, whether it’s francs or whether it’s Siracha, Sweet Baby Ray’s, I’m using every brand name you don’t want me to use right?

Zack Oates

You know that this is not a sponsored podcast,

James Walker

Maybe it should be, you know, people, you know, at least where I’m from. And where I live. Now, if I say barbecue sauce, people say sweet baby ray’s. So we didn’t try to reinvent the wheel. From a sauce standpoint, we created something unique with the waffle offerings. And really, this came together to be something that competes in as crowded a category as anything. And I mean, the wing space would creates a very unique, again, memorable craveable experience that is very true to our brand architecture of the flavor of New York.

Zack Oates

I love that concept. Especially like, you know, let’s partner people. Let’s like work together, people have invented the wheel. So stop trying to roll around with a square stone, right? Like, there’s things that that work and like, it always kind of bugs me when I go to a place and want myFrank’s And they’re like, they have some housemade you know, powder stuff and I’m like, Nah, man, just just do what works. Well, anyway,

James Walker

I’m not going to throw another brand out there. But when I go into somewhere, my my experience with that where I just shake my head and say somebody has too much time on their hands, is when I go into a restaurant and they say we’re making housemade ketchup. Don’t make housemade ketchup. All right, there’s other you know, make housemade you know. But there’s a brand I won’t give the brand. But there’s a brand and you know what they have knocked ketchup out of the park. They’ve got the sweet, they’ve got the sour. They’ve got the salt level. It’s amazing. It’s a great condiment if you are a ketchup lover. And I know many people are mustard passionate, and that that’s a whole another podcast. But yeah,

Zack Oates

That’s Yeah, I probably could start a podcast about mustard. That’s how much that’s how many opinions I have about Sure. Yeah. All right. Now, in closing seconds here, what, what is I know you’ve talked a lot about the customer experience, what do you feel like is one of the most important aspects of customer experience nowadays?

James Walker

Brands have a promise, whether it’s good or bad. And I think it’s it’s a little different from, you know, a channel standpoint. So if I go into a casual theme restaurant, my expectations, you know, are such of what that in-restaurant experience is going to be, and my experience expectations as a guest or customer are a little different if it’s going to be delivered to my house. But I would say, you know, make sure that you’re doing everything you can to execute against the brand promise. And I think in a hyper competitive market, like we’re in the United States, if you want to wow consumers, just executing that brand promise is probably not going to be enough. If you want raving, you know, raving fans, and you want brand evangelists, you need to go above and beyond. You know, we’re a fast food restaurant, we’re proud to be in that fast food. I love when customers correct me and say James, Nathan’s isn’t fast food. Okay, who am I to correct you? Great. But you know, we, in our restaurants, we try to do things like refill soft drinks. And clear tables around people ask if they need more condiments, and you can just see, you know, in their eyes, that that’s something they associate more with casual dining. We want people to be surprised and delighted. So execute the brand promise is the buy in to, I think continued sustainability of your brand. But going above and beyond is really what it takes to be super competitive.

Zack Oates

Now, I love that. Our mission at Ovation is to enable businesses to measure ,build and maintain trust. And we look at that, as you know, you’re either increasing or decreasing that trust with every experience. And I think that brand promise is that is that mark to which they measure that trust.

And any tips in terms of successful things that you’ve seen or tried lately?

James Walker

You know, we’ve had a lot of luck really looking at the nuance of the customer experience. And, you know, I had a conversation with someone, might have been Rev, I had a conversation with someone on it, the fact that restaurant executives really need to experience their own brands as a customer as often as possible. And it’s not just the food or the packaging, it’s it’s everything. You know, the the condiments, the silverware, the plastic ware, you know, is it something that really, you know, delights and achieves a great customer experience.

And it’s the nuance, so I try not only to experience, all of the touch points, everything a customer touches, I want to touch on a real frequent basis to see if it exceeds my expectations or if there’s an opportunity to do so. And you know, just from another piece of advice, since you asked me advice, I think restaurant executives need to do the same thing from an employee standpoint. So we’ve rolled out new uniforms at Nathan’s famous, and the most important step in that the single most important step and that was making sure that they were uniforms that employees said yep, I’m proud to put this on. I like the way it looks. I like the way it feels. It makes me feel comfortable while I work and you know what I I’m comfortable wearing this home, in meeting my friends. So you know, make sure all of the things that one of your valued and hopefully valid team members are experiencing that it really is the right thing for them as well. Happy employees are going to be a lot more creative to the customer experience.

Zack Oates

Love that. And then lastly, who deserves a ovation in the restaurant industry today?

James Walker

Hourly employees. I don’t even have to think about that. You know, you and I were at a conference as you mentioned, and I think that conference led off with some some really fantastic, fascinating industry data. And one of the data points that really stuck with me was, it wasn’t about the service level from restaurants. And I understand the service level certainly impacted by COVID. It’s impacted by governmental restrictions. And it’s also currently impacted very heavily by the employment situation. But the fact that came out of that presentation that stuck with me, was more about consumer behaviors, that consumers have become more demanding, and maybe not quite as great as they have been in the past. And I think there’s reasons for that, right. There’s more pressure, they’re more demanding. They’ve been cooped up for 12 to 14 months, and some of the restaurants are are short staffed, and that’s creating some bottlenecks.

But, you know, I spent most of the day yesterday in our surf Avenue location, and huge throngs of guests, which is super exciting to see, you know, we have 43 registered points in that restaurant. 43 registers, all with lines of customers, and all I could think of is our staff, many of them still wearing masks, because, you know, we think it’s the right thing to do from a sanitation or hygiene standpoint. And just how difficult their job is. In a heat index of 105 degrees yesterday in Coney Island in Brooklyn. And I just look at these people. I’m like, you know, they’re doing such an amazing job, and there is no brand without them. So the short answer who deserves an ovation who deserves everything we can give them right now? It’s the hourly employees.

Zack Oates

Awesome. By the way, I’ve got to tell you, James, I am wearing in your honor, I am wearing my hot dog shirt.

James Walker

I see that. So is that I don’t want to count them. But is that like the number of hotdogs we expect Joey Chestnut to eat this Sunday for the world record?

Zack Oates

Whatever happened to the rabbit? Where’d he go? Oh, my gosh, he Kobayashi that’s it. That’s just unreal. He’s like a tiny little dude.

James Walker

A little known fact: The competitive eaters who do really well in fact, the two World Champions, Joey chestnut and Miki Sudo on the women’s side. I mean, they’re athletes. They’re in great, great shape. Joey looks like as does Mickey. Like they could run a marathon and not be winded. I look like I could walk down stairs and be winded. But I’m not a competitive eater. So they are athletes.

Zack Oates

Anyway, how do people by the way how did they find you follow you?

James Walker

So I’m on Twitter I’m pretty easy to find on Twitter and from a business standpoint, I’m I’m pretty easy to find on LinkedIn as well.

Zack Oates

Awesome. Well, James for giving us a teaspoon of wisdom in your ocean of knowledge. Today’s ovation goes to you really appreciate you joining us on given ovation today, man.

James Walker

My My pleasure. A teaspoon of knowledge and wisdom might be all I have. But I’m happy to give what what we were able to find today.

Zack Oates

Thanks, James.

James Walker

My pleasure.

Zack Oates

(Outro) Glad you were with us today. And thank you! Thank you to the risk takers, the troublemakers, the crazies who are keeping this world clothed and fed. You’re the ones who deserve an Ovation. Again, this podcast was sponsored by Ovation! To see how we can help you grow your business, go to Ovationup.com. Don’t forget to subscribe, and as always, remember to give someone in your life an Ovation today!