Zack Oates sits down with Arjun Sen, former Chipotle marketing VP, author of Unquit Forever, and CEO of ZenMango. Arjun shares how to build guest loyalty by creating emotional connections, leading fear-free, and focusing on one customer at a time.

Owning the Feeling Business (02:06)

Arjun explains that brands win when they focus on how guests feel.

“We’re in the feeling business. You still have to wow one more—again and again.”

Be Your Own Customer (03:00)

He urges leaders to personally experience their own brand.

“Sleep in your own guest room. You’ll discover what your guests already know.”

Earn the Second Date (05:12)

Restaurant loyalty is like dating—each experience earns the next visit.

“Before every guest leaves, they must feel, ‘I did good.’”

Fear-Free Leadership (10:02)

In both business and life, Arjun encourages operating without the option to quit.

“Move from the me world to the we world. The superpower is saying, ‘I need help.’”

Don’t Quit on Your Team (16:26)

He reminds leaders that most great employees leave because they feel unseen.

“If I’m loved when I arrive and when I leave, I won’t quit.”

Links:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/zenmangoarjunsen/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/zenmango/

https://www.zenmango.com/about

Transcript

00:00:00:04 – 00:00:25:11

Zack Oates

Welcome to another edition of Give an Ovation the Restaurant Guest Experience podcast. I’m your host, Zack Oates, and each week I have the privilege of chatting with industry experts to uncover their strategies and tactics to help you create a five star guest experience. This podcast is powered by ovation, the feedback and operations platform built for multi-unit restaurants where you can learn what is actually happening in your restaurants and how to improve.

00:00:25:13 – 00:00:51:06

Zack Oates

Learn more at ovation up.com. I know I’m excited every single time, but today we have someone who is a marketing executive, a entrepreneur, a speaker, an author. I actually have his book right here, Unquiet Forever. Keep yourself in the game. Not only that, but he has a blockbuster movie made from his life, Arjun Sen. Welcome to the podcast.

00:00:51:06 – 00:00:52:20

Zack Oates

It’s an honor to have John.

00:00:52:22 – 00:00:55:21

Arjun Sen

Thanks. I truly appreciate all the kind words you said.

00:00:55:23 – 00:01:13:04

Zack Oates

Well, as I mentioned before, we hit record, I’ve had so much fun going through your book and diving into your life and who you are in preparing for this. And I had a very good friend of mine, someone that I really respect in the industry. Just sing your praises. And so I was like, I’ve got to meet this guy.

00:01:13:05 – 00:01:27:22

Zack Oates

And so it’s great that we’re finally able to connect here. But tell me a little bit about your marketing company first. I know that’s originally how we connected is that we have a couple of mutual friends and customers in common. Yeah. So tell me a little bit more about your marketing firm.

00:01:27:24 – 00:01:47:03

Arjun Sen

Yeah. So I left the corporate world first to be a dad. First, we totally, truthfully had no plans and then started building the consulting. And with a new brand. I start with one question. In my case, the world does not need another brand consulting company. It doesn’t. But what is it that we can bring that changes the whole thing the same way?

00:01:47:03 – 00:02:06:21

Arjun Sen

If you look at with ovation, ovation brings this unique way of actionable guest in information. That is what is important. Okay, so in my case, the whole thing was the world has all brand agencies, everything else. We really create the path to win big. We are the value multiplier. We help you focus on one guest at a time.

00:02:06:21 – 00:02:25:10

Arjun Sen

So there are two types we own. One is we own the feeling business. It’s all about the feeling and the feeling means. While one more in any restaurant, however cool you are, you can go to millions of customers, but you have to wow. One more, one more, one more. And it’s a very simple journey as you start going through.

00:02:25:12 – 00:02:50:17

Zack Oates

And not only wowing one more, but making sure that you’re wowing them again and again. And I think that’s one of the things that, as I look through the reviews of your company and by the way, Zen mango.com is where you can go and learn more about what he does in his brand consultancy. But I mean, the reviews and what people are saying about you is just incredible that you’re able to distill it down to what is the essence of that brand.

00:02:50:19 – 00:03:00:14

Zack Oates

And so as you’re looking at that, what are some things that you use to guide these executives through to help them understand the essence of their brand?

00:03:00:16 – 00:03:21:01

Arjun Sen

You know, there are two simple realities. One is you cannot fake it till you make it with any brand. You have to be a customer in your brand. I’ll give you a goofy example. From outside our industry, I was working and speaking at a retirement home and part of my contract. I wanted to spend two next day.

00:03:21:03 – 00:03:22:22

Zack Oates

Oh, in the retirement home.

00:03:22:24 – 00:03:45:02

Arjun Sen

You know we are. How can I talk about your retirement home and make a fool of myself and have no clue? And one of the big things I learned is imagine, Zach, you and I both just started 7580. We have to go to this home. They have a rule that we have to take two, five by seven pictures only two five by seven pictures for two frames.

00:03:45:04 – 00:04:11:10

Arjun Sen

I can’t do that. There’ll be a mutiny in my family if I cruise to five by seven. Okay. Like there are small things that I learned that really hit home. So next day when I went to speak, I asked the board, how many of you have spent there? And here’s a request to everyone who’s listening is my request is you and your significant other in the next three days, go and please spend a night in your guest bedroom once you sleep on the guest bed.

00:04:11:10 – 00:04:28:18

Arjun Sen

My wife and myself, we did. We found our guest bed is the most romantic, but if you’re at the edge, you fall off. If you’re in the middle, you go in that O’Neill. When we slept in the bed, we changed the bed. Spend notes to people who I visited by saying sorry for that excuse. Please come back for a free night.

00:04:28:20 – 00:04:49:01

Arjun Sen

But that is like being thinking. Feeling like the guest is very important. And the second thing on the wall, one more is on every guest experience. If you look at that, could be a dead man, you insecure single. You’re going out on a date is the first impression and the last impression, the first impression. Right away you put the person in one of three buckets.

00:04:49:03 – 00:05:12:22

Arjun Sen

What am I doing here? Or well, or let’s see. But here’s the coolest thing common between a date and a restaurant experience a guest with your experience, whether it is in restaurant or with your food, makes a decision. Just like on a date. Whether to go out with you again. And that’s the awkward knowing it will happen with your food in front of you.

00:05:12:24 – 00:05:24:23

Arjun Sen

That’s the most important thing. You can influence that. How do I influence that? Before every guest leaves, they must feel I did good. This is very simple. Business is simple, just like a date.

00:05:25:00 – 00:05:42:19

Zack Oates

I love that I actually do a keynote session called Dating Your Customers and it’s all about how do you get a second date? Because when you look at what happens on the first date, the first thing they’re going to do is go check out your social media profile. Right. And what do your guests do? They go when they check out your online reviews.

00:05:42:19 – 00:06:10:03

Zack Oates

They see what are people saying about you when they walk in. When you first see that date for the first time in person and you’re greeted with a hug, is it weird? Are they shaking your hand? Is it kind of uncomfortable? Or are they like, you know, is it natural? And so when they walk into your restaurant or they place the order online, is it easier, frictionless, and you can kind of go through everything that it takes to be a great first date, and that’s what you need to have the guest feel.

00:06:10:05 – 00:06:29:01

Arjun Sen

And the thing that you said is very important is the second date. Okay, imagine you’re single, you meet this most amazing woman, and you go and put a plan in front by saying, hey, I just see that you and I will be together to the point where in three years I booked that amazing result for us to get married and six years have booked that hospital.

00:06:29:01 – 00:06:54:13

Arjun Sen

They are having a discount now. Why one get to reach when you and she should. Okay, so all you can do is one date until the next date. That to me is such a humble thing to look at is I will earn the next date. Even if you cheat on you because the location you will not. It’s not Zak, I wish I went out with Zak, I wish I went to Zach’s restaurant takes.

00:06:54:16 – 00:07:03:09

Arjun Sen

That’s the feeling you can create. Like the FOMO can be created, as you said within the date, within the experience. For the second date. That is huge.

00:07:03:11 – 00:07:25:21

Zack Oates

And the problem is with restaurants, because it is such a expected promiscuity and appropriate promiscuity within the restaurant industry. Right? We eat at a lots of different restaurants. The thing is that you are only as good as your last experience. And so if you’re on the 10th date, they’re on the 10th visit and they have a terrible experience, well, guess what?

00:07:25:23 – 00:07:29:19

Zack Oates

That unlocks another restaurant to take your spot.

00:07:29:21 – 00:07:30:09

Arjun Sen

Oh, cookie.

00:07:30:14 – 00:07:41:04

Zack Oates

And you could only. Which is why, again, that wowing one guest at a time needs to be a mindset of every single guest, not just first or second guest.

00:07:41:06 – 00:08:05:23

Arjun Sen

Good. Every day, every time. And then you add on top of it every restaurant. Friday is Saturday for 3 to 4 hours. We go into the equivalent of a food Two-Minute drill. Different coaches put a team in place for two minute drill because that is where things fall down. That is where things break. Most restaurants do not have a plan for the two minute trip.

00:08:06:03 – 00:08:11:21

Arjun Sen

Okay, most restaurants plan to drive the car in perfect weather.

00:08:11:23 – 00:08:15:06

Zack Oates

You no. Those. Yeah.

00:08:15:08 – 00:08:30:04

Arjun Sen

Are are broken. And that’s one of the things is if you are the head of operations, you have to be out every week Thursday, Friday, Saturday night at peak time to appreciate what you team does.

00:08:30:06 – 00:08:52:10

Zack Oates

I think that is such a great concept because processes and procedures, if they’re only meant for perfect scenario, they’re going to work 5% of the time. You need to figure out. This is why one of the things about Disney, which, by the way, I would definitely spend a night in Disney if I was doing something that I don’t know, I never thought about spending the night in like a nursing home before to understand what the experience is.

00:08:52:10 – 00:09:24:18

Zack Oates

It’s like so powerful really putting yourself in their shoes. But one of the things that Disney does is that they give all of their cast members. Here’s the order of importance in terms of what you need to do and how you treat the guest. And the number one thing is guest safety, meaning that if there is a line that is four hours long and someone who is needs a little bit of help is trying to get on the ride, they make everybody else wait because their experience comes second to guest safety.

00:09:24:18 – 00:09:51:03

Zack Oates

And they don’t have to explain that in the thousand iterations of what that means. But they teach them the principles of how to treat the guests, and they feel like that’s one of the things that you’ve done expertly. And those Thursday, Friday, Saturdays, those nights where things just get crazy. And we’ve all been there in the restaurant industry, and it’s just like you get to halfway through the shift, you look down at your watch and you’re like, that wasn’t 14 hours.

00:09:51:08 – 00:10:02:07

Zack Oates

And things get really hard. And this is where I want to dive into your book and this concept of unquiet. Talk to the listeners about unquiet and what that means.

00:10:02:09 – 00:10:26:19

Arjun Sen

You know, what I said was, imagine both of us grew up together. We grew up in a world where quitting wasn’t an option. You started crawling. We fell. That bump on my chin is from the fall, but we got up. There was no number of times you stood, you started walking. Walking wasn’t easy. But all these things happened because we all were.

00:10:26:19 – 00:10:46:15

Arjun Sen

Zack are in a world of no quitting option. But then somehow we learned this concept of quitting. When I was 1819 year old, I tried to learn roller skates. I fell three times, I didn’t, I don’t know how to quit my wife does not know how to ride a bike. She’s scared to ride a bike now. But once you put quitting as an option, you play differently.

00:10:46:18 – 00:11:02:17

Arjun Sen

Anytime you and I are on a project, we both look at each other and our rule is if both of us are ready to quit, it’s like we are going on a hike. If both of us are ready to quit, we quit. But how would we play? In a world where quitting is not an option? That’s where we go from fearless to fear free.

00:11:02:18 – 00:11:22:00

Arjun Sen

Fear free is you and I get together. We count on each other. All I need to do is when I am close to quitting. I’m human. I move from the me world, which is an M to V opposite. All I have to do is my superpower is I need help. That’s super power. There’s enough people around who will help us.

00:11:22:02 – 00:11:49:19

Arjun Sen

They. That is the part of unquiet that is there is in any place. How would you play knowing just like a quarterback this is a free play, nothing to lose all out. And I think that is what is holding us back. And that’s what I think unclear to me in life, in relationships, like even with my wife knowing that at the end of an argument we would be together closer.

00:11:49:21 – 00:12:02:20

Arjun Sen

It allows us to go deeper in, learn each other, to be better together. Because we are fear free. We are not going to lose each other in the process. If my daughter is the same thing, like I feel that’s what I’m quickest.

00:12:02:22 – 00:12:22:19

Zack Oates

It’s so interesting and I love that concept because quitting so often is an option that is way higher up on the spectrum than it should be, and especially like in this day and age when people are so much more willing to quit than before because maybe they don’t want to go through a hard thing. And I get it.

00:12:22:20 – 00:12:34:18

Zack Oates

We want to make sure that people feel safe, but I feel that sometimes people will exchange the words safe for easy talk.

00:12:34:20 – 00:12:56:14

Arjun Sen

And don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying push yourself beyond, I’m just saying you choose. Don’t be scared of failure and don’t be scared of success. That many a time we feel that you and I have had three good quarters. Let’s change our job and move to a different place, because we may not be able to replicate this.

00:12:56:14 – 00:13:19:21

Arjun Sen

Not that’s not the reason to give up. We may give up because next three quarters we want to choose on our team and invest more on the team and may take our selves. It’s a conscious choice. You’re not pulling yourself out of the game like you’re taking the quarterback out to give him a rest. You’re not taking the quarterback out because you don’t see a path to it.

00:13:19:23 – 00:13:35:11

Zack Oates

That’s a great point. And speaking of those moments of feeling like quitting in your book and quit forever, you talk about these dark moments and can you pick a 1 or 2 that have really shaped your outlook on life?

00:13:35:13 – 00:13:50:21

Arjun Sen

I think, you know, it’s common for all of us, every one of us who are here today, who are listening to this go back, think about their days in your life you thought was coming to an end. You are in high school night before an exam, two more chapters. You didn’t prepare for what?

00:13:51:02 – 00:13:52:13

Zack Oates

I don’t know. How do you think about that?

00:13:52:13 – 00:14:16:09

Arjun Sen

Our next one will be you. Most probably. This girl you were dating. Talk is the most amazing person. Just tells you sorry, think, doesn’t you? Your formal reason like you think the world is coming to an end. First job. We got a bad review. Okay? Those nights for a tough world is coming to an end. But think two days ago, sitting here, I didn’t hear.

00:14:16:11 – 00:14:36:21

Arjun Sen

Because the world never comes to an end. We found a way. That’s the part where we have to give ourselves credit is we found a way. And any time there’s a situation, I really look at myself and I tell myself I would discipline that. I only go back to the past for two reasons to find celebrations and find learning.

00:14:37:01 – 00:14:57:04

Arjun Sen

Let’s say this is a restaurant that closet only has tea and coffee. I only go for tea and coffee. I don’t go for anything else and it really helps us. Like, let’s say I give you a very clear example. We work in a restaurant, I made a few big mistakes and you are the owner at that instance. You don’t have to fire me at that instance.

00:14:57:04 – 00:15:18:01

Arjun Sen

Let’s move forward. You can find me tomorrow at that instance. You don’t have to waste time on who did it. I don’t have to waste time justifying consequences should happen later. But if we get into that moment of being in the present, just get learning and celebrations from the past to take the step forward. That’s all it takes.

00:15:18:03 – 00:15:43:18

Arjun Sen

And that discipline I have found, is very important in the business world, in the restaurant industry, everywhere. Because we bash ourselves, we bash others, we try to change the past exact. Why could you not yesterday do this? I don’t know, was did Zak intensely ever screw up? No. If I have to help evolve or you have to help me evolve, it’s a different conversation outside the crisis.

00:15:43:20 – 00:16:01:00

Arjun Sen

Another day. All right. Now, Zak, can you be a superhero to get us out of it? Yes, I can. What’s the one step like that, I think is the mindset with some huge mindset. And that’s the part with quick. And all these are connected because it’s all about taking one step.

00:16:01:02 – 00:16:24:18

Zack Oates

I love that celebration or learning, not regret and depression. What do you do about the future? Right. Because a lot of times people will quit, not because things have been hard, but because they’re so scared of what things? Of how hard things will be in the future. They’re imagining all these scary things that are going to happen, and it paralyzes people into indecision or into quitting.

00:16:24:20 – 00:16:26:14

Zack Oates

How do you look towards the future?

00:16:26:16 – 00:16:47:17

Arjun Sen

If, for example, one of the big challenges in the restaurant industry is retention, some team members will have to quit because they are moving on in life after graduation, they’re moving to a new job. I understand those are good things for the person or sometimes good for us, but rest of the time, good team members quit because we have quit on them.

00:16:47:19 – 00:17:09:11

Arjun Sen

That exact will not leave this job. Zach felt loved at two points when he comes in and then he leaves the work okay. When he leaves their job, I just call you out by saying that buddy had a great day. Have a great evening. Be safe. If you need anything, call me. And if I know your family members, name your wife kids.

00:17:09:11 – 00:17:30:08

Arjun Sen

I say, hey, you don’t say hi to the loser. Leave me. No he won’t. It doesn’t matter how much you get paid, you get happy about the pay raise. Everything. Just for maybe 18 days or 22 days. I’ve done the math sometimes. But what happens is every day when you leave, you know. But I’ve quit on you. Whether you’re a nameless person, another person that Facebook and Twitter, that means you are disposable.

00:17:30:08 – 00:17:48:01

Arjun Sen

That means you can leave. But if you still didn’t love me here, they need me. It goes back to the feeling business retention that’s the core of retention is, oh, every team member, every day feels connected to one person in the organization who has not quit. This is the we world, not me world.

00:17:48:02 – 00:18:11:22

Zack Oates

Wow. I mean, that’s so powerful. And helping them to feel that love and that connection. And what would you say to them? I think this is great for leaders thinking about how do we help our team feel that love and stay connected. What would you say to the leaders that are maybe there? Like, you know, I think about the restaurant industry is a very competitive industry.

00:18:11:22 – 00:18:30:05

Zack Oates

Like I think about some of my customers that are chicken customers, and they’re just so afraid of what’s going to happen because there’s so much competition for chicken. Prices are going up, consumer demand is going down. Well, what would you say to those people who are just kind of like scared of what the future holds for their restaurant?

00:18:30:07 – 00:18:48:04

Arjun Sen

So I would say two things to them. One is I’ll steal from this smart guy. I met. I forgot his name, Zach. He just talked to me about prioritizing. Okay. What is the number one thing that you do is the most important thing. Number one thing, what you showed me on that example means priority means you can choose.

00:18:48:06 – 00:19:09:14

Arjun Sen

Priority means everything else looks priority to me means there are four women in my life my daughter, my wife, my mother, and my mother in law. They call right now, I’ll take the call, which means you become number two. Zach, I’m sorry, but that’s priority. Priority is predefined. That to me is the goal that you shared. And the second thing, as you start going through is brand must understand.

00:19:09:16 – 00:19:33:23

Arjun Sen

I know it’s a competitive world, but you cannot control what your competition does. The moment you fall into the trap of reaction, you’re toast. You’re dead. You have to see the world, but you act. If you and I play a game, if I can get you to a reaction mode. Are you Lindsey? Every day and brands react. Competition does this.

00:19:33:23 – 00:20:01:12

Arjun Sen

Let’s put an extra coupon. Competition does this. Let’s do this. No. What competition does has changed the play the game plan in that new game plan, what is the right best action for us? Plus we will save time. We sometimes think that the corporate world rewards us for that person who acts first. No, I really want the person who acts because the moment you act first, you do emotional, impulsive response.

00:20:01:14 – 00:20:22:03

Arjun Sen

You throw in a play that was there. Maybe you need to create a new play. Maybe you need to bring somebody else to help you. But that difference between action and reaction in a competitive world really changes brands. I’ve seen brands who were leaders start reacting well. If you act like a follower, you become a follower.

00:20:22:05 – 00:20:48:07

Zack Oates

Wow. I mean, I mean, I just looked at the clock and I’m like, oh my gosh, this flew by. I have, so thoroughly enjoyed chatting with you. This has been mind expand and it’s been so wonderful. So I hate to wrap this up, but you know, a lot of people in this industry and a lot of people from your time speaking and writing, who is someone that you feel like deserves an ovation, who’s someone that we should be following?

00:20:48:09 – 00:20:58:20

Arjun Sen

There are two individuals. One is rock star. A little bit of yesterday. Former president CEO of Panera, Blaine Hurst. Oh, president.

00:20:58:22 – 00:21:01:18

Zack Oates

Blaine is such a sharp guy. Love Blaine.

00:21:01:20 – 00:21:24:16

Arjun Sen

And the coolest thing about Blaine is a lot of people are talk more, walk less. Lean is 99% walk. And the second is the leader of today who I really think will emerge to even a super leader is Giggler. And you know, it’s K. The coolest thing I learned is with smartness. That’s success. This an attitude that comes in people.

00:21:24:18 – 00:21:46:06

Arjun Sen

I think Clay has not read that chapter of the leadership. Okay, so he has missed out that he has to add a little attitude to his life. He does not. He is the same clay I know for 20 years that 15 years that same amazing human being leading, taking things to bigger levels. So really applaud both these guys to be amazing friends and mentors in Malik.

00:21:46:08 – 00:22:06:15

Zack Oates

I couldn’t agree more. I mean, those are two just incredible people. People I look up to a lot and people that I’ve learned so much from and talking about going through challenges. Blaine’s life has been incredible to seen what he’s been overcoming and all the things he’s had to relearn. And so I know there’s a lot of camaraderie and trials that you and Blaine have had.

00:22:06:15 – 00:22:14:11

Zack Oates

And so I love that shout out for him now, Arjun, where can we go to learn more about you or your company?

00:22:14:13 – 00:22:40:14

Arjun Sen

So of course, Arjun, Centcom that’s where you can find all the information. And also if you get a chance on Amazon Prime, check out the movie I want to talk. And today is a very special day because yesterday in the equivalent of Indian Oscar, the movie won Best Movie, Best Actor and Best Script. So we have been celebrating and this has been an amazing day for this movie to win three of the top awards.

00:22:40:15 – 00:22:58:16

Zack Oates

Oh my gosh, that’s incredible. Well, congratulations are amazing and I can’t wait to watch the movie because I’ve had such a good time going through your book again. Unquiet forever. And so for showing us that life is worth quitting, today’s ovation goes to you. Thank you so much for joining us and giving ovation.

00:22:58:18 – 00:22:59:16

Arjun Sen

Thank you.

00:22:59:18 – 00:23:22:05

Zack Oates

Thanks for joining us today. If you like this episode, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite place to listen. We’re all about feedback here. Again, this episode was sponsored by ovation, a two question, SMS based, actionable guest feedback platform built for multi-unit restaurants. If you’d like to learn how we can help you measure and create a better guest experience, visit us at ovation up.com.