Melissa Richards-Person of Third Arm Consulting joins Zack Oates to explore how brand DNA becomes the foundation for guest experience. With leadership roles at KFC and Papa John’s, Melissa brings a clear framework for separating personality from a founder, defining what is uniquely yours, and turning that clarity into daily behaviors that guests feel.

Finding the DNA in a Founder Led Brand (02:00)

When a brand’s face steps back, the team must decide what remains. Melissa frames the task simply: identify the qualities everyone believes in that competitors cannot own. “What are the things that really are uniquely ours that do not belong to any of our competitors?”

Make the Why Visible (03:27)

It is not enough to list features. Go one layer deeper. “If you know your brand DNA, then you are going to behave in a way that feels natural, authentic, and different.” That behavior shows up in products, tone, and service.

Extend the Signature, Not the Trend (05:08)

Papa John’s leaned into its cult favorite garlic sauce and built extensions that felt true. “Let’s keep extending it and celebrate the people who love it.” The goal is not novelty. It is amplification of what fans already cherish.

Design Peak and End Moments (09:10)

Melissa points to the peak end rule. Guests remember the emotional peak and the end. “There is always a signature moment you can bake into the end of your experience.” Small rituals, like a mint or a goodbye, create memory and talk value.

Turn Feedback into Recovery and Coaching (11:16)

Immediate feedback allows a brand to repair a miss and teach in real time. “If you know your brand, you can respond in a way that feels authentic and unique.” The right tone beats a generic form response every time.

Define Tone with Precision, Not Friendly (15:00)

Words like friendly are too vague. “If I tell you we are folksy or thoughtful or gregarious, that gives you a different way to respond.” Precision language creates consistent service that still feels human.

This conversation offers a playbook any team can apply. Clarify the DNA, create a signature ending, extend what fans love, and use feedback as both a guest win and a manager training tool.

Links:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/melissa-richards-person-3rdarm/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/third-arm-consulting/

https://www.getathirdarm.com/

Transcript

00:00:00:09 – 00:00:26:17

Zack Oates

Welcome to another edition of Give Innovation the Restaurant Guest Experience podcast. I’m your host, Zach Hodes, and each week I chat with industry experts to uncover their strategy and tactics to help you create a five star guest experience. This podcast is powered by ovation, the feedback and operations platform built for multi-unit restaurants. Learn what is actually happening in your restaurants and exactly how to improve while driving revenue.

00:00:26:18 – 00:00:37:05

Zack Oates

Learn more at ovation up.com. And today I am so excited because we have Melissa Richard person here. Who did I get that full name correctly? Melissa.

00:00:37:07 – 00:00:42:17

Melissa Richards-Person

You did, you did. But a lot of my restaurant friends call me MRP. So feel free to use that.

00:00:42:17 – 00:01:15:16

Zack Oates

Okay? MRP I mean, if you have followed her on LinkedIn, you just know the incredible career that she’s had and she has been, as we were talking about right before we hit record, not just at the table, but behind the steering wheel of some extremely influential brands at extremely pivotal times. We’re talking brand director of KFC. We’re talking almost a dozen years as the, over at Papa John’s, where she finished off as chief brand officer.

00:01:15:16 – 00:01:36:01

Zack Oates

She’s been CMO, marketing lead. She advises different CCS and startups and companies, and now she’s at third Arm Consulting, working with all kinds of brands, helping them to improve their brand voice, their marketing presence. And so I am so excited, Melissa, to have you on the podcast.

00:01:36:03 – 00:01:57:15

Melissa Richards-Person

Thank you Zach. I’m excited to be here. I feel really fortunate because you’ve talked to some of my favorite people that I’ve worked with throughout my career, including Justin Fashola recently, who he and I worked together at Papa John’s, and Perry Rogers, who I got the honor of working with when during our time with Shaquille O’Neal as our brand ambassador.

00:01:57:15 – 00:02:00:14

Melissa Richards-Person

So yeah, it’s great to be here. Thank you.

00:02:00:16 – 00:02:33:13

Zack Oates

Well, you are in good company right in here. Now, as we think about the guest experience, first of all, I don’t know how much you’re allowed to share, but I would love to just ask your opinion on how was it during the Papa John’s transformation from having Papa John be the face in the head to not as you’re running the brand, how do you transition when the main the logo is no longer there?

00:02:33:15 – 00:02:34:19

Zack Oates

How did you do that?

00:02:34:21 – 00:03:16:06

Melissa Richards-Person

So I use a phrase a lot called brand DNA. And really the core of my consulting practice now is helping companies unlock their brand DNA and use it to drive everything from innovation to loyalty to content to products and growth. And that was really what we needed to focus on. We needed to focus on really, what was Papa John’s authentic DNA and brand DNA is really the core of how you deliver a differentiated guest experience as well.

00:03:16:08 – 00:03:27:09

Melissa Richards-Person

So if you know your brand DNA, then you’re going to behave in a way that feels natural, authentic, but also different.

00:03:27:11 – 00:03:52:16

Zack Oates

But I mean, I feel like especially in that situation and everyone faces this in one way or another, I think this one is just one that is so textbook of the main leader is gone. Like if Jimmy John was kicked out of Jimmy John’s right. It’s like part of it is just because of the name. It’s like that feels like so much of the brand DNA is that individual.

00:03:52:19 – 00:04:00:20

Zack Oates

So how do you separate that? How did you guys tease out what is a individual and what is the brand?

00:04:00:22 – 00:04:39:16

Melissa Richards-Person

Well, specifically, what this is a lesson for really is any concept that has a founder at the center. You have to understand what the qualities are that everyone believes in. And so just like any other brand that has a founder at their center, at some point you have to say, okay, that person can’t be everywhere. Every time. So what are the things that really are uniquely ours that don’t belong to any of our competitors?

00:04:39:16 – 00:05:08:23

Melissa Richards-Person

Great example. Papa John’s believed in and still does. You always get a little something extra when you order from that brand, and that could be the pepper and Cheyney and garlic sauce were always the thing that everybody talked about. And especially garlic sauce. Garlic sauce has its own following. I mean, let’s be clear. And one of the things that we did as a result was we really leaned in to garlic sauce.

00:05:08:23 – 00:05:33:00

Melissa Richards-Person

And the current CMO there is doing an amazing job of bringing that into the TikTok age and capitalizing on trends and doing really interesting things. And we started with launching spicy garlic sauce, for instance. But that all came back to it wasn’t, oh, let’s just crassly try to get a little bit more money by launching a spicy garlic sauce.

00:05:33:00 – 00:06:13:24

Melissa Richards-Person

It was, gosh, okay, if we always give a little something extra. And one of the things everybody can get their arms around is garlic sauce. And everybody talks about it and loves it. Well, then let’s keep extending it and let’s celebrate the people who love it. We actually got Chrissy Teigen. I remember even in the midst of some of the craziness we had going on, Chrissy Teigen posted about the brand and we quickly, we had this amazing social media coordinator who jumped into action, got our graphic design department to mock up a label of our garlic sauce that looked like the label, but it said Chrissy’s Garlic sauce.

00:06:13:24 – 00:06:47:08

Melissa Richards-Person

John hands off, put it on a jug of garlic sauce and sent that along with a bunch of other swag. We were all over her Instagram stories and you know how many people pay for something like that? But it was a little thing. It was rooted in something that was unique to the brand. But more than that, it was rooted in this idea of always giving a little something extra, which is a part of the brand DNA.

00:06:47:10 – 00:07:11:19

Zack Oates

They love that because there are things in every brand that you are doing right now which are a little bit different, and I love that you just stop at the garlic sauce or at the Pepperoncini. It’s like, no, no, no. It’s like, why do we do that? And that’s part of the DNA. What is one step before that is like, that’s just what it looks like.

00:07:11:24 – 00:07:32:20

Zack Oates

But why is it like what are the roots of it? Not just one of the leaves look like? And I love that when you get to the DNA and the reason for things being as opposed to just that, they are, that’s really powerful too, because then you could leverage it in so many ways. And, you know, why does the spicy garlic toast, why did that feel nostalgic?

00:07:32:22 – 00:07:56:03

Zack Oates

Because it was rooted in the thing that is authentic, which is giving a little bit more. And so I would challenge every listener. And I think this is a challenge I’m going to come away with. I know what we do better than anyone else, but the question is, why do we do that better than anybody else? What do we believe that makes it that way?

00:07:56:05 – 00:08:06:10

Zack Oates

And then how do we talk about that more? How do we lean into that more? How do we do more innovation around that, marketing around that? I love that MLS. It’s super, super powerful.

00:08:06:12 – 00:08:31:02

Melissa Richards-Person

And it can be really challenging to get to that very bottom level. I often joke that sometimes right before the breakthrough is when somebody wants to throw their computer at me because we’re just we keep saying no, no, but but why is that okay? But really, is that something that only we could do, only our brand could do?

00:08:31:07 – 00:08:37:02

Melissa Richards-Person

Or could anybody do that? Could a competitor do that? Okay, then it’s not the Y. It’s not the part of our DNA.

00:08:37:07 – 00:08:45:04

Zack Oates

Or even if a competitor can do that, is it authentic to them to do it, or does it seem like they’re just being a copycat?

00:08:45:06 – 00:08:46:06

Melissa Richards-Person

Exactly.

00:08:46:08 – 00:09:10:19

Zack Oates

That is is so powerful. And all of this with us really comes down to Melissa is the guest experience, and it’s making sure that the guest is having a great experience. And so you’ve had such an incredible career sitting front line to top desk at these incredible brands. What do you think is one of the most important aspects of guest experience nowadays?

00:09:10:21 – 00:09:47:10

Melissa Richards-Person

I think it’s in the way that you deliver some signature moments. You know, think about Welcome to Moe’s. You know, you walk in the door and there’s a signature greeting. I’m a bit of a geek when it comes to behavioral science, and there’s something called the peak and rule, and that’s about the fact that the two parts of the experience that someone’s going to remember the most are the most emotionally engaging, either bad or great.

00:09:47:12 – 00:10:31:15

Melissa Richards-Person

And how it ends. And so there’s always a signature moment that you can somehow bake into the end of your experience, whatever the end of that experience is, that can have incredible power in how you are seen from the whole of your guest experience. I think about one of the first brands in the food service industry that I got to work on was Olive garden, and there’s all those Andes mints, and there is a cult of those Andes mints, and I think there would be Wyatt if they ever got rid of them, because everyone talks about them.

00:10:31:17 – 00:10:52:21

Melissa Richards-Person

And it really was a signature moment nearly from the start of the brand. So it was always you and differentiated. But everybody would get excited. And if the server heard you talking about the mints, they’d bring you a load of them at the end. So what happens? Everybody’s talking about, oh my gosh, we got so many more mints.

00:10:53:00 – 00:11:16:16

Melissa Richards-Person

Oh my gosh, we got mints. And they’re giving them out to people. It’s creating magic. But I think what ovation does as well is help guarantee that that end experience, especially if it didn’t go well when they left the restaurant or they got their order, is it gives you an opportunity to still put that signature moment on the end.

00:11:16:16 – 00:11:42:24

Melissa Richards-Person

Because if you immediately get feedback that, oh, something didn’t go well and you know what your brand is, then you can respond in a way that feels authentic and unique in saying, I’m sorry we screwed up. This didn’t go right. Here’s how we’re going to fix it. Here’s what we’re going to do for you. So having that immediate guest feedback is incredibly powerful.

00:11:43:01 – 00:11:53:09

Melissa Richards-Person

And if you match it with your brand DNA, it becomes a signature moment to build a loyal fan.

00:11:53:11 – 00:12:19:15

Zack Oates

That’s so true, because one of the things that everyone is searching for, regardless of if it’s naturally in your DNA or not as a restaurant brand, is that connection, is that hospitality? And we have found that a guest who had a negative experience with proper service recovery is worth 24 times more than your average guest because they come in four times more often, they spend $5 more.

00:12:19:21 – 00:12:37:22

Zack Oates

They come in four and a half times more frequently, and they’re 12 times more likely to leave you a five star review. And so when you look at that data about what is it? And I think that when you get down to your brand DNA, then you take it down to just human DNA. We all want to feel important.

00:12:37:24 – 00:13:02:07

Zack Oates

We all want to feel connection. We all want to feel like we matter to someone. And every single interaction that makes us feel not important. Like we go now to just someone creates an animosity that goes so much deeper than you just forgot my burger. It’s no, no, no, I am not important enough for you to remember my burger.

00:13:02:09 – 00:13:20:09

Zack Oates

And so when I get home and I have my five burgers, they get home. I open the protagonist, four in there. That’s more than just a I’m frustrated. It is a front on who I am and what I’m searching for and feeling fulfilled. And not just being filled.

00:13:20:11 – 00:13:53:22

Melissa Richards-Person

You treated me like a number. You didn’t treat me like a person. And that level of authenticity and that level of not just that, oh my gosh, you recognized me, but you gave me what felt like a personal response. I was it was a personal response as opposed to, oh, well, you get that. How often did that form email just even infuriate you more?

00:13:53:22 – 00:14:02:23

Melissa Richards-Person

It is almost worse than if you didn’t apologize at all. Like, oh, you just sent off the form email and that was it.

00:14:03:00 – 00:14:19:02

Zack Oates

Yeah, absolutely. I think there is something interesting there to dive into the data of does a bad response is a bad response less likely to win back an upset? Guess? The no response. Anyway, I’m curious to dive into that.

00:14:19:04 – 00:15:00:17

Melissa Richards-Person

Yeah. Well and that’s where having a crew we differentiated personality and tone. It’s built in your DNA makes a difference. Like for instance, I think I mentioned to you when we were chatting that I hate the word friendly in any sort of brand, personality or DNA because it doesn’t really tell you how to behave. But if I tell you that we are folksy or we’re gregarious or we’re thoughtful, that gives you a different language, a different name, a different way to respond.

00:15:00:17 – 00:15:21:04

Melissa Richards-Person

So you think of what a folksy apology would be, or what a thoughtful apology would be, or a gregarious apology would be. And they each take on different shades of language, but they feel more human than if I just say be friendly.

00:15:21:06 – 00:15:52:06

Zack Oates

That’s really powerful. And I think that so much of this is so powerful because what we’re talking about, again, it’s like what the seed is will determine the plant. And if you’re planting the truest, most clear thing that you can, then the closest to what you’re looking for will grow. It’s just like I if I tell I here’s a picture of someone, have them ride a horse.

00:15:52:08 – 00:16:19:12

Zack Oates

It’s like there’s a lot that the eye has to assume. Now, if I say they’re in Texas in the 1800s riding a horse for a shootout with the sheriff, the eye will create an image that’s much more clear. So two, we must be in how we’re building our brains. That clear? We are in who we are. The more accurate everyone’s going to be able to respond to that.

00:16:19:14 – 00:16:58:15

Zack Oates

And I going to tell you, Melissa, I enjoyed our conversation when we first met. And like obviously looking into you like very impressive. I have never written down so many to do’s. I’m sitting here like I’ve written down like four things to do. And so I hear I’m like with Professor Mississippi here, just getting my homework longer. It’s no, but I appreciate it because I feel like anyone who’s listening that’s thinking about their brand should be taking notes seriously of like, what do I need to do to improve?

00:16:58:17 – 00:17:16:15

Zack Oates

Because these kinds of tactics affect every other tactic that you will do. And so anyway, I just really appreciate that. And speaking of tactics, I do want to just get to a couple of things that you have found that actually have improved the guest experience.

00:17:16:17 – 00:17:50:20

Melissa Richards-Person

So I think as I was talking about having that unique signature on a bowl moment, you just have to exude food, the DNA of your brand. So how do you figure out how to exude the DNA of your brand? If a small number of people are actually delivering on a great experience every day, then you need to not only have a great experience, but one that’s going to drive brand love.

00:17:50:22 – 00:18:25:07

Melissa Richards-Person

And that means that how do you take the whole of the time that someone spends with you and demonstrate that you are uniquely you as a brand? So what’s really great is that if you come up with things that you know, you want people to say or do, or you want your team to experience in the time that they’re with a guest in whatever space that is, or on your apps or in your third party experiences, how do you reinforce those moments?

00:18:25:09 – 00:19:03:06

Melissa Richards-Person

And then what you can do with ovation is use those questions that you can ask the next day that you can send to see how well you’re delivering on some of those unique things we talked about. Welcome to Moz. And we talked about is there a signature goodbye, or is there something that you can do when someone brings the check that helps you remember them and take a little piece of your restaurant or your place home with you, or is it something that you do within technology that you make it really easy for people to split the check?

00:19:03:06 – 00:19:30:12

Melissa Richards-Person

If you are a concept that has a group of people, lots of groups of people dining together, I hope that a place like Maggiano’s is thinking about how can we do a better job of delivering a check splitting app that people can pay and they can be in control, and they can have all those uncomfort verbal conversations, rather than feeling like they have to slay a litany of things to the server.

00:19:30:14 – 00:19:47:05

Zack Oates

I totally, completely agree with that. And Matt Lewis at the time has just flown by. I just looked at the clock. I think we realize that we’re like over time here, but this has been such a great conversation. Last two questions. Who deserves innovation in the restaurant industry? Who is someone that we should be following?

00:19:47:07 – 00:20:20:14

Melissa Richards-Person

I am so lucky to call this woman a friend. Her name is Carrie Diamond, and Carrie is the founder of a platform called Cherry Bomb. She’s on Instagram at Cherry Bomb, but all the cherry Bomb channels should be a must follow because she covers restaurant people and food makers, beverage makers, content creators. And so if you’re looking for ways to be unique and reinforce the DNA of your brand, you’re going to hear from all sides of the industry, which is amazing.

00:20:20:16 – 00:20:30:22

Zack Oates

Wow. Yeah, I definitely just, giving her a follow and want to reach out to her to bring on the podcast. Just look at what she does like. Holy cow, she does some amazing content on there.

00:20:30:24 – 00:20:32:01

Melissa Richards-Person

She’s fantastic.

00:20:32:04 – 00:20:36:21

Zack Oates

So awesome. Before we finish up, how do people find and follow you?

00:20:36:23 – 00:20:50:05

Melissa Richards-Person

I am on LinkedIn. Melissa Richards person, Melissa Richards dash person, and third Arm consulting on LinkedIn. And then if you love the intersection of food, music, sports, and cats.

00:20:50:07 – 00:20:52:17

Zack Oates

Oh oh.

00:20:52:19 – 00:21:06:15

Melissa Richards-Person

One at Mel Rich for more. And if you want a little bit about great campaigns, interesting insights and trends to watch, it’s at Third Arm Consulting on Instagram as well.

00:21:06:17 – 00:21:18:12

Zack Oates

Awesome. Well, for helping us not just understand what we do, but why we do it, and for giving me more homework than any other guest. Today’s ovation goes to you. Thank you for joining us. I give it ovation.

00:21:18:14 – 00:21:19:23

Melissa Richards-Person

Absolute pleasure Zach.

00:21:19:23 – 00:21:43:15

Zack Oates

Thank you. Thanks for joining us today. If you liked this episode, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite place to listen. We’re all about feedback here. Again, this episode was sponsored by ovation, a two question, SMS based, actionable guest feedback platform built for multi-unit restaurants. If you’d like to learn how we can help you measure and create a better guest experience, visit us at ovation up.com.