Kevin Boehm, co-founder of Boka Restaurant Group, joins Zack Oates to share the story behind building one of the most respected restaurant groups in the country. With decades of experience and multiple award-winning concepts, Kevin reflects on the mindset, risks, and creative decisions that shaped his journey in hospitality.

Building Something That Lasts (02:10)

“You have to think long term if you want to build something meaningful.”

Kevin explains how Boka Restaurant Group was never about quick wins, but about creating concepts that stand the test of time. He emphasizes patience and vision as core drivers of sustainable growth.

Creativity as a Competitive Advantage (05:30)

“If you’re not creating something unique, you’re just competing on price.”

Kevin highlights the importance of originality in hospitality. In a crowded market, he believes creativity is what separates memorable brands from forgettable ones.

Learning Through Risk (09:15)

“You learn more from what doesn’t work than what does.”

Reflecting on challenges and failures, Kevin shares how taking risks has been essential to growth. Each misstep became a lesson that informed better decisions moving forward.

The Power of Storytelling (13:40)

“People connect with stories, not just food.”

Kevin discusses how every restaurant within Boka Restaurant Group carries a narrative that guests can feel. This emotional connection plays a key role in building loyalty.

Consistency Builds Trust (17:05)

“At the end of the day, guests just want to know what to expect.”

While creativity drives attention, Kevin notes that consistency is what keeps guests coming back. Delivering reliably great experiences is the foundation of any successful brand.

This conversation highlights how long-term thinking, creativity, and disciplined execution come together to build a lasting hospitality brand. Kevin’s approach shows that success is not about chasing trends, but about creating meaningful experiences that guests return to again and again.

Links:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/kevin-boehm-4826a326b

https://www.instagram.com/kevinboehmboka/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/boka-restaurant-group/

https://www.bokagrp.com/

https://www.instagram.com/bokarestaurantgroup/

Transcript

00:00:00:09 – 00:00:26:04

Zack Oates

Welcome to another edition of Give An Ovation, the Restaurant Guest Experience podcast. I’m your host, Zack Oats, and each week I get to chat with industry experts to uncover their strategies and tactics to help you create a five star guest experience. This podcast is powered by ovation, the feedback and operations platform built for multi-unit restaurants. Learn what’s actually happening in your restaurant and exactly how to improve while driving revenue.

00:00:26:05 – 00:00:49:23

Zack Oates

Learn more at ovation up.com. And today we have someone who. This is such an honor because I actually have his book right behind me. He is Kevin Boehm, the father of three James Beard Restaurant Tour of the year. He’s got 20 James Beard nominations. He’s opened 50 restaurants, maybe 51 as of this week as he’s always open and more.

00:00:50:00 – 00:00:51:03

Kevin Boehm

Well done Zach. That is correct.

00:00:51:03 – 00:01:19:14

Zack Oates

The co-founder of Boka Restaurant Group and the author of Bottomless Cup, a book which was given to me by a good friend, Jeff Alexander of Wow Wow. Also from there in Chicago and I was so blown away by the book that I got it on audio and I got the printed copy. And this book is just amazing because and Kevin, I gotta tell you, in my life, I have cried reading two books, Nicholas Sparks, A Walk to Remember and Kevin Bacon The Bottomless Cup.

00:01:19:16 – 00:01:29:21

Zack Oates

It was such a amazing read, so powerful. And I was like, I would just be honored to chat with you. So it’s grateful to have you on the podcast.

00:01:29:21 – 00:01:38:07

Kevin Boehm

Kevin bro, thank you. And I’ll just admit right now, Nicholas Sparks, he’s made me cry.

00:01:38:09 – 00:01:42:12

Zack Oates

There’s a couple of guys not afraid to cry over some Nicholas Sparks guy.

00:01:42:13 – 00:01:45:09

Kevin Boehm

That guy, Nicholas Sparks, he’s got the crying thing down, doesn’t it?

00:01:45:10 – 00:01:52:00

Zack Oates

He knows how to tug those heart strings. I mean, every time I start to fall in love with the character, I’m like, oh, don’t do it, Zach. You know what’s going to happen next?

00:01:52:02 – 00:01:55:23

Kevin Boehm

It’s the same thing in the music world like Elliott Smith does me.

00:01:56:04 – 00:02:02:17

Zack Oates

Oh, dude, I couldn’t even tell you a single Elliott Smith song. But now I’m going to go look this.

00:02:02:19 – 00:02:06:19

Kevin Boehm

And there you go. If you want to feel really sad, hang out with Elliott for a while.

00:02:06:19 – 00:02:34:05

Zack Oates

He’s good at okay, done written. Awesome. So, Kevin, I want to start with some of this. Pretty interesting that I found this guy a mutual fan of yours, Joe Fontana from the coop. He was telling me about the legend that is Swift and Sons, and I think this is just such an interesting story of how they had to thaw the building and how you’re like, hey, this is a great place to build a restaurant.

00:02:34:07 – 00:02:43:21

Zack Oates

And I think that, like, it speaks to who you are as a person and like not being afraid to do something crazy. Do you want to tell us a little bit about Swift and Sons and what that story is?

00:02:43:23 – 00:03:03:04

Kevin Boehm

Of course. But for first of all, I think that storytelling is such a big part of what we do. And if there’s a great story behind it, it like kind of legitimizes the restaurant, makes it seem authentic, and there’s nothing more authentic than putting a steakhouse in a building that was the meat locker for meat packing for 100 years.

00:03:03:06 – 00:03:24:06

Kevin Boehm

But the problem was, is the building had been an icicle for so long, you had to let the building naturally defrost, or it was going to upset the integrity of the building. So for 18 months, we had to let all these stalagmites of ice and all this meat that have been in there freezing for 100 years, naturally defrost.

00:03:24:08 – 00:03:25:23

Kevin Boehm

So we put a camera in there.

00:03:26:00 – 00:03:30:13

Zack Oates

Because the whole thing was actually like just like a big giant freezer, right?

00:03:30:15 – 00:03:44:19

Kevin Boehm

Giant freezer. So the ground floor of that building ended up becoming Swift and Sons in the land where both Armor and Swift, the two biggest meatpacking companies in the world, were meatpacking, right outside.

00:03:44:21 – 00:03:45:16

Zack Oates

At some point.

00:03:45:16 – 00:04:09:11

Kevin Boehm

So that became the Google building, original Google building in Chicago, or the second Google building in Chicago. And then we put a steakhouse in there and we’re like, well, that seems pretty natural. But, you know, it’s so fun when when we ordered for a restaurant, we basically start to whiteboard and we’re like, okay, on this side of the board, what are the core competencies that we need to be a steakhouse?

00:04:09:13 – 00:04:31:14

Kevin Boehm

You need big tables, and you need to have shrimp cocktail and Caesar salad and different cuts of meat, all those things. And then the right side of the board is what are all those things we’re going to do to bend the concept, to make it bespoke, to make it one of one, to make it ours. And so people will throw out some ideas that are awesome and some ideas that are probably moronic, and everything goes on the board.

00:04:31:20 – 00:04:49:07

Kevin Boehm

And then we kind of sift through it. And is that a good idea or is that a terrible idea? Then you sleep on it and then the next morning maybe it’s even worse of an idea. But we threw out things like, what if we had a magician who worked the floor and we put tableside magic on the menu and a magician could come tableside?

00:04:49:09 – 00:05:00:21

Kevin Boehm

And that’s one of those crazy ideas from those original moments of us going into this cooler that stayed all these years. We’ve been open 11 years now, and there’s a magician on the floor every single night.

00:05:01:01 – 00:05:07:09

Zack Oates

That is amazing, I love that. So if the magician stayed, what are some of the ideas that guy cut?

00:05:07:11 – 00:05:28:05

Kevin Boehm

You know, it’s so funny. I think I wrote about in the book that I used to always want to have an on deck circle in the restaurants, and I want to have this table that right before you got sat down, something special happened. And there was one guy working the station, and maybe he was creating an amuse and a drink that was paired with it, both alcoholic and nonalcoholic.

00:05:28:11 – 00:05:44:24

Kevin Boehm

And so the six top would go to the on deck circle, get a quick amuse course, be greeted by a bartender, and then go to the table. And I think we quickly said, I think that’s impossible in a restaurant that seats 350 people, it’s going to get backed up. What do you do to only certain people get it?

00:05:45:01 – 00:05:49:16

Kevin Boehm

I remember that as being one of the ideas, quickly and swiftly, pun intended, kicked out.

00:05:49:20 – 00:06:11:19

Zack Oates

Well, I think that’s so cool how you’re able to take these ideas in these situations. And the reason I love that, just like the theory of the Swift and Suns building, is because it’s a building that you look at and you’re like, oh, that’s never going to work. Like, let’s just tear it down. And I think about the amount of tearing down and building up that you talk about in your book, in this memoir.

00:06:11:21 – 00:06:32:17

Zack Oates

And I think one of the first big moments is like your first apartment and your Suzuki and that Suzuki Samurai. And I think about that and I think about how many people have emotionally been there and that Suzuki, how many people have been like, whatever, this is just like nothing’s working in my life. Just tear it down and start over.

00:06:32:19 – 00:06:36:22

Zack Oates

What do you say to people who are feeling discouraged?

00:06:36:24 – 00:07:07:18

Kevin Boehm

Well, first of all, limitation breeds creativity. If you get too many things handed to you on the front end, I think it softens you up. If you have to go through obstacles, you continue being a student. I think probably one of the best things that ever happened to Tom Brady was the fact that he was a backup quarterback in both high school and college, and he continued to be a student and he learned all these things, and he kept fighting as opposed to someone who’s giving a magic arm when there’s 12 years old and there’s a whole lot of those, the Ryan Leafs of the world.

00:07:07:20 – 00:07:28:15

Kevin Boehm

So I think every moment in my life where I was given something, it wasn’t quite right. It forced me to think my way out of it, including living in my car. So which led to a fake resume that I build my my first wonderful piece of fiction that I wrote that had restaurants on it that had all mysteriously gone out of business so they couldn’t call for a reference check.

00:07:28:15 – 00:07:49:11

Kevin Boehm

And so I remember somebody telling me a story once about an architect who said, if you gave me a 10,000 square foot building that was a square, and you gave me a building that was hanging off of the side of a mountain, I’ll take the side of a mountain every time, because I’ll come up with something more beautiful and more interesting if you give me limitation.

00:07:49:13 – 00:08:04:08

Kevin Boehm

So take it as a sign that you’re on to something, right? If it’s challenging you, the universe has a way of putting roadblocks in your way. If it’s worth it, it’s kind of an earning process. I love that.

00:08:04:10 – 00:08:31:03

Zack Oates

Because, I mean, it’s also challenging of, you know, the universe might be telling you to go a different direction or there may be some things of like I think about in the startup world, just the amount of pivots that you have to make. And sometimes there’s things that are hard because you’re pushing this hill, you’re pushing this ball up this hill that is going on like there’s this cresting moment of like things are starting to work.

00:08:31:05 – 00:08:44:08

Zack Oates

And then there’s the ones where it’s like you’re pushing the rock into a wall, like there’s nothing else beyond this. And I think it takes that humility sometimes to take that step back and say, where are we going? Is this the right path for me?

00:08:44:10 – 00:09:00:13

Kevin Boehm

Yeah. I think if I look back on my life and I’m a good detective and I look at like the failures I’ve had in my life, I do look back and say, okay, here’s the moment where I was too soft, or here’s the moment where I wasn’t paying attention to the signs. I should know I’m here, here and here.

00:09:00:13 – 00:09:07:02

Kevin Boehm

They left me three clues that we were on the wrong track. And, you know, for whatever reason in life, we don’t pay attention sometimes.

00:09:07:08 – 00:09:25:17

Zack Oates

What do you recommend to help us pay attention? How do we have those moments that we can like, honestly? Look, third party and say, is this a clue of what’s going to come? Or do I just need to push through? Like, what have you? Is there anything in the moment? Or is it only in retrospect that you can pick those up?

00:09:25:17 – 00:09:26:21

Zack Oates

Do you think?

00:09:26:23 – 00:09:45:16

Kevin Boehm

I’m pretty sure it’s in self-awareness, you know, is like like looking as you’re moving and being very self-critical and having a team that’s with you, that’s not like the guys that used to hang out with Elvis, that told him everything he did was perfect and beautiful. You got to have people around you that say, bro, I think you’re on the wrong track here.

00:09:45:18 – 00:10:04:09

Kevin Boehm

And so we’ve always surrounded ourselves with very opinionated, smart people who are very smart in their lane. I’ve always kind of described it as a house team and, you know, people that are strong enough and confident enough in their own opinion that they say, oh, dude, I think you’re thinking about this in the wrong way. We just went through that last night.

00:10:04:09 – 00:10:19:06

Kevin Boehm

We’re opening a brand new restaurant this week, and we all just said, you know what? The music’s not quite right, is it? At one point, I’d said, I think that this is just one playlist. I don’t think it’s like an early a middle and a late. I think it’s a restaurant that is more thematic than usual. And I was wrong.

00:10:19:08 – 00:10:32:19

Kevin Boehm

We got in the restaurant last night. We’re like, no, we need to shifted to another gear. That’s 730 and we got to separate the playlists. And so I spent the morning sifting the playlists between an early version and a late version and the Elliott.

00:10:32:19 – 00:10:33:18

Zack Oates

Smith on there.

00:10:33:20 – 00:10:43:15

Kevin Boehm

There is no Elliott Smith. No nobody. Nobody wants that. Elliott Smith is for sucking your thumb and crying in the bedroom by yourself. But for a convivial evening out at the restaurant.

00:10:43:15 – 00:10:55:12

Zack Oates

So not being afraid to really share your opinions and where you fall on the line. Kevin, what’s a belief that you have about hospitality that you think that most operators might disagree with?

00:10:55:14 – 00:11:17:03

Kevin Boehm

Oh man, I think it falls with whether the customer is always right or not, because I don’t have a yes or a no answer to that. My answer to it is that it doesn’t matter. It’s irrelevant. Somebody comes into your store and if they believe the dish is too salty or whatever, who cares? Manipulate the end result that you want to achieve.

00:11:17:05 – 00:11:40:06

Kevin Boehm

If you want that guest to come in there not being a bad person, helping get to the right answer. Figure out what is going to make them happy. There’s so many different tricks when a customer is upset that you can help them de-escalate, because the reason might have nothing to do with the restaurant. And so I’ve always approached it as a relevancy of being right, which was actually a welcome conference theme once.

00:11:40:08 – 00:12:03:06

Kevin Boehm

And Danny Meyer told a story, actually, where when he opened up Union Square Cafe, he had some traders that came in that always said, give me the most expensive bottle of Chardonnay. And one day it dawned enemies like man, they always asked for the most expensive ones are bringing him Sonoma. Contraire. Let’s bring him of Monterey. And so he bought a plane and he went to the table and he said, hey, Luis, your dollar amount.

00:12:03:07 – 00:12:19:08

Kevin Boehm

You’re saying the guy’s like, I asked for a Chardonnay? And Danny was like, do I tell him that Chardonnay, or do I just get in the bottle that he actually wants? And he’s like, it didn’t matter that I was right. All I was going to do was embarrass him by telling him so he wouldn’t grab the bottle of Sonoma Catturare.

00:12:19:08 – 00:12:33:24

Kevin Boehm

And he’s like, that’s more like it didn’t matter is. So if you’re too tied up about being right all the time, it’s going to be a lonely place for you. Because really, the idea is, how do I make these people feel good? How do I make them feel happy? Take yourself out of the equation.

00:12:34:01 – 00:12:56:11

Zack Oates

Is that why, Kevin? Because I was actually one of the questions I wanted to ask you was about the whole service recovery, and you seem to be so good at connecting with people when they’re upset. And is it this mentality? You’re like, why do you think you’re good at that? And what tips do you have for people who maybe not be as good at that table touch service recovery piece?

00:12:56:13 – 00:13:15:13

Kevin Boehm

Why did tremendous fear of a couple of things. One, fear of failure early on, but also fear of judgment of others. When I opened Boca, I was having my first baby and I didn’t have any money, and it was sort of like, if this restaurant doesn’t work out, not only am I in a whole lot of trouble, I’m now responsible for other people.

00:13:15:15 – 00:13:45:24

Kevin Boehm

So no matter what was going on, all I wanted to do was have that guest come back. So I think just looking with that set of eyes, not taking anything too personally, and being a little bit paranoid about when I would look at tables and say, got table position to it, 31 doesn’t seem to be digging it. I’m gonna dig in there a little bit and see what’s going on, and then not having knee jerk reactions to what people are like, hey, this room is too loud.

00:13:45:24 – 00:13:53:00

Kevin Boehm

And you’re like, well, that’s what we do here. Sorry. You know, I mean, so what do you do? The market goes up.

00:13:53:01 – 00:14:05:02

Zack Oates

Is that the same thing, like in your meetings? Like if someone if you’re in a meeting and someone says something that might be kind of offensive to you, who might be a partner, might be an employee, how do you handle that?

00:14:05:04 – 00:14:26:03

Kevin Boehm

I am a firm belief that, especially within partnerships, nobody draws a line in the sand. And so you give your compelling argument like you’re at a court case and you know, you’re like, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, let me tell you why I think my opinion is right. And I’ve heard what you said. Here are the pillars of mine.

00:14:26:04 – 00:14:42:21

Kevin Boehm

Here’s why I think yours won’t work. And Rob and I have been good partners for 25 years because neither of us is ever like, I think you’re fucking wrong, but we’re doing it this way. So a lot of times that we’ve compromised and a lot of times we said, I’m going to give you this one. Let’s see where it lands.

00:14:42:23 – 00:14:48:06

Zack Oates

Oh, interesting. And how hard is it not to be like I told you, that wasn’t going to work.

00:14:48:08 – 00:14:55:22

Kevin Boehm

Well, you well, you can do it, but only in an adjustable way. Yes, I told you, I think I knew.

00:14:55:24 – 00:15:09:16

Zack Oates

Yeah. So any tips? I mean, like, you know, let’s say someone has a restaurant and they’re kind of struggling with this aspect of when the guest gets upset, they just fly off the handle. They get super frustrated by it. What would you tell them?

00:15:09:18 – 00:15:28:23

Kevin Boehm

I told them to take a beat. I first I would say, what pattern of yours do you think that is that makes you react to it in that way? If somebody doesn’t like anything, you going straight to? Well, I think that’s a perfectly seasoned crawfish it two fact. I tried it this morning. I tried it in line. Check your bra.

00:15:29:00 – 00:15:51:08

Kevin Boehm

What is that about you and your own ego? That can’t say. Let’s get you something else if you don’t like that. I have a whole lot of things back there. I think you’re going to make you happy. So let me buy this tonight and get you something else. I mean, that’s where I think pre rehearsing when you have the wrong reaction to thing and a day later you could say, I don’t know why I was like that.

00:15:51:10 – 00:16:22:15

Kevin Boehm

I think it’s pre rehearsal in life of like let’s try this the next time and see what happens. And you’re like oh my God. That was so much easier. I’ve kept that person as a guest. They’ve now told people that they thought I handled it in the right way. We shoot ourselves in the foot a lot of times because of patterns in life, that a lot of times not to get too deep here come from because 90% of us is either tried to emulate or rebel against it, and it creates patterns in our lives that go back to our parents.

00:16:22:17 – 00:16:32:13

Kevin Boehm

And so when we’re judged by a guest that we don’t even know, we bring way too much of our own ourselves and our own sensitivity into it.

00:16:32:15 – 00:16:53:14

Zack Oates

Man who thought in 15 minutes we’d go that deep. But I think that’s I love that, though. I think that it’s so true. It it’s like you look at what drives you. It’s like, man, I want to make my mom or dad proud, or I got criticized about this thing that I think is really important to me. And I think that part of it is you ended the book.

00:16:53:16 – 00:17:21:15

Zack Oates

I felt like on a very surprising note, it’s not what I expected when one of the last things you talk about is basically and let me share with you what I got out of it, and you tell me if I was supposed to. People don’t really care as much about you as do you think they do it. It’s totally reframed how I think about things in terms of like, you know, here I am running this software company, but it’s like, I think about this software company 100,000 times more than any of my customers.

00:17:21:15 – 00:17:33:10

Zack Oates

Think about the software company. And you kind of talk about that from the restaurants and from like life in general. It’s like kind of get over yourself and realize that you’re only the center of the universe to you.

00:17:33:14 – 00:17:57:12

Kevin Boehm

Yet everybody’s not thinking of you all the time like you think. And I love the expression most people in life will do what’s in their best interest. And what you look for is people whose best interest is your best interest. And so if somebody selfishly wants you to be happy because that makes them happy, those are the people in life that are thinking about you and you want to do good things for.

00:17:57:12 – 00:18:30:12

Kevin Boehm

And then there’s a whole lot of other people in life that are so concentrated on themselves that if you can be hospitable towards them, when you’re in their space and show that it’s in your best interest, their best interest, that’s where you’ve really won. Somebody over. That’s where you really have a guest for life. When they’re in a moment and you are given the luxury of being a part of their big moment, and you take your little cameo role, those few seconds that you have and improve the situation, that’s when you’ve got somebody for life.

00:18:30:14 – 00:18:35:14

Zack Oates

Man, I love that you want them to selfishly, selfishly love you.

00:18:35:16 – 00:19:00:05

Kevin Boehm

Correct? They’re like, man, I know that if I go to whoever’s restaurant on a night when I’m celebrating, miss, that he is going to take good care of me. This is what people do. I had a very great customer for years named Lynn, who the first time she ever came into Boca restaurant was when we first opened. And she goes, Kevin, I had a nice time, but you probably won’t see me in here again.

00:19:00:07 – 00:19:12:21

Kevin Boehm

And I said, why? And she goes, Because I’m a Gibsons girl. And she goes, I got asked to this meeting tonight, but I threw a lot of parties for my hospital. I know they always take care of me. And, you know, they always know who I am. And I’m like, well, I could be that person. She’s like, well, who knows, maybe.

00:19:12:23 – 00:19:29:01

Kevin Boehm

And so several months later, she came back in and when she walked through the door, I was like, Miss Kahana, it’s so good to see you again. And I took care of her the whole dinner. And at the end of it she goes, you know what? I might end up being a Boca girl, too. And then over the years, she threw all kinds of parties and buyouts with us.

00:19:29:01 – 00:19:38:20

Kevin Boehm

And all this was. And it was off of me recognizing her the second time she came in and her feeling like it was in my best interest to take care of her, which it was.

00:19:38:22 – 00:20:01:23

Zack Oates

Yeah. I mean, and I think, Kevin, one of the things that’s been incredible to see through your career is just how much you really care about the individuals, because in hospitality is proving to the guests that you care, and it’s a hand-to-hand combat, and they’re not going to care unless they know that you care about them. And I think that you, throughout your memoir, just the stories you told about the individuals, really showed that.

00:20:01:23 – 00:20:10:02

Zack Oates

And so, in conclusion, Kevin, who is someone that deserves an ovation, who is someone that we should be following.

00:20:10:04 – 00:20:30:17

Kevin Boehm

There’s a guy named Steve Palmer in Charleston who has like 40 restaurants. Indigo Road Hospitality is the name of his company. I spoke at their symposia, and they have every single year for their employees. And I went to it, and it was so educational and so detailed and so loving all that stuff that they practice all year long.

00:20:30:18 – 00:20:50:01

Kevin Boehm

Great food, great hospitality. They give it towards their people. And it’s this whole education day. He’s so good at that. He’s so good at culture, he’s so good at understanding what other people want because he’s gone through his own stuff. He has also has a very amazing book about his trials and tribulations, so he deserves an ovation.

00:20:50:01 – 00:20:54:08

Zack Oates

Awesome. Well, Kevin, how do people find and follow you and where can they get your book?

00:20:54:10 – 00:21:11:03

Kevin Boehm

They can get my book wherever fine books are sold, including Amazon, Barnes and Noble, target, and books called The Bottomless Cup. And they can find me on Kevin Van Boca on Instagram or at book of grp.com. Is my restaurant website awesome?

00:21:11:07 – 00:21:19:09

Zack Oates

Well, Kevin, you for giving us just a sip from the bottomless cup of your wisdom. Today’s experience goes to you. Thank you for joining us on an ovation.

00:21:19:11 – 00:21:20:15

Kevin Boehm

Thank you.

00:21:20:17 – 00:21:43:04

Zack Oates

Thanks for joining us today. If you like this episode, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite place to listen. We’re all about feedback here. Again, this episode was sponsored by ovation, a two question SMS based, actionable guest feedback platform built for multi-unit restaurants. If you’d like to learn how we can help you measure and create a better guest experience, visit us at ovation up.com.